Ok; using the Buckeye Institute site I did a little math on our school district. There are 270 positions/records in the 2010 salary summary. I take the top 10 administrative positions which includes the supt, the five principals or so, the treasurer, the AD. I get an average pay of $79,130, and that number is based on a 260 day work year, thus equating to about $304 per work day. I then take that $304 per day average and multiply it by the teacher work days of 184, arriving at $55,936. I then compare this $55,936 with all the 270 positions listed to see how many of the non-admin hierarchy are actually making more [per day] than the top management. There are 50 people who fit that bill.

Thus we have 50 employees making more per work day, than the 'leaders/managers' of the enterprise. Can sombody please tell me what is wrong with that picture?

I hear some complain about the high cost of administrators as being the problem; to me, this little exercise blows that out of the water, at least on a per/employee basis.

The too many/high priced administrators argument doesn't work on me because I agree with it! There are too many administrators in our school systems, and it adds ridiculously to the costs of running a district. They need to be cut down, as much as the teacher salaries and benefits need to be reigned in. It all leads to the same place: an unsustainable strain on local and state resources.

I'm not going to feel sorry for any of the teachers in my district. Just looked at their salaries and I wish I could make 40-50,000/year only working 184 days and retire with close to a $1 million retirement fund.

Manhattan Buckeye;695779 wrote:From what I understand the highest comp level is Masters Plus - but the underlying point is IMO accurate. Few, if any, teachers become more effective by taking additional classes and it is just an additional comp strategy for a worthless degree, and aside from the additional comp it is a waste of time for the teachers. The big beneficiary is the diploma factory.

I certainly agree that current method of placing undo importance on acquiring college credit as part of the professional development needs to be changed. The current assumption is that you spend 2 hours outside of class on homework for each hour inside the class for a college class. If you do not take a class for credit you have to make up those other 2 hours in some way. For instance I took professional development classes over the summer that had an option to receive college credit. I did not need the credit so I did not pay for it. I did the exact same work as the students who took the credit but when I went to apply the experience for my professional development I was only 1/3 of the credit that the paying students were given. It is far easier to pay the money and get the credit rather than complete the paperwork trail for the same class with no college credit attached. In my opinion this has leads to educational institutions finding ways to 'offer credit' for just about any professional development experience.

Your view on the value of professional development, however, is way off base. I have had the pleasure of attending several high quality professional development classes over the past few years. Each of those classes has had a lasting impact on my classroom and made me an even more effective teacher. And yes, an effective teacher can, and dare I say should, become more effective. Or is our goal to get the teacher to a certain level and then expect them to progress no further. Furthermore, teachers with advanced degrees do bring additional skills and experiences to the classroom that are valuable. My advanced degree in science greatly influences how I teach my students in a fashion that goes well beyond the additional knowledge that my degree required. My classes (freshman science to AP Chemistry) rely heavily on designing and performing experiments to answers questions, presenting and evaluating data, and drawing conclusions in order to deliver meaningful learning. I can not imagine how much differently I would approach my teaching without those rich experiences in my background.

Senate Bill 5
Omnibus Amendment Summary

1. Reinstates collective bargaining rights for state employees.

2. Removes the right to strike for all public employees and establishes penalties for participation in a strike. Violators are subject to removal, and shall have pay deducted at the rate of twice the daily rate of pay for each day of participation in a strike. The penalty for violating a court injunction against a strike is a fine up to $1,000, up to 30 days imprisonment, or both. In addition, an employee who willfully disobeys a court mandate may be fined for contempt in an amount left to the court’s discretion. Penalties and fines may not be waived as part of a settlement. At an unfair labor practice hearing related to illegal strike activity, the board shall order the suspension of payment of dues or fees to the employee organization for the greater of two days, or two times the duration of the illegal activity.

3. Establishes that all matters pertaining to wages, hours, and terms and conditions of employment are subject to collective bargaining. Also establishes matters not appropriate for bargaining, such as health care benetfits, pension pick-ups, privitazation of services, workforce levels, and other provisions.

4. Establishes a procedure for dispute settlement for all public employees. If the parties are unable to reach agreement, any party may request the State Employment Relations Board (SERB) to intervene. The board shall appoint a mediator. Any time after appointment of a mediator, either party may request appointment of a fact-finder. The fact-finder must consider factors listed in statute. Fact finding meetings may be open to the public at request of either party. The interests and welfare of the public and ability of employer to administer and finance the proposals must be a primary consideration.
If the parties are unable to reach agreement within 14 days after publication of the findings and recommendations, or if the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) has expired, the public employer shall submit the findings, the employer’s last best offer, and the employee organization’s last best offer to the legislative body of the public employer. The legislative body shall conduct a public hearing, as soon as practicable, at which the parties shall explain their positions. At the conclusion of the hearing, the legislative body must vote to accept either the last best offer of the employee organization or the last best offer of the public employer. The parties shall execute a CBA that represents the last best offer chosen by the legislative body and the agreement is effective for 3 years.
During negotiations between a public employer and exclusive representative, for purposes of determining inability of the public employer to pay for any terms agreed to, only the employer’s current financial status at the time period surrounding the negotiations – not any potential future increases in income that would only be possible by the employer obtaining funds from an outside source including passage of a levy or bond issue, ability to sell assets, raise revenue, or other revenue enhancements.

5. Clarifies public employer rights, including such issues as hiring, discharging and discipline of employees; work assignments and hours; qualifications of employees; employee rules and regulations.

6. Establishes bargaining timelines. Adjusts the timelines for certification and bargaining to ensure reasonable deadlines. The amendment also requires SERB to investigate a request to certify instead of automatically certifying an employee organization. Nonexclusive recognition previously through an agreement or memorandum of understanding does not preclude SERB from determining an appropriate unit, removing a classification, or holding an election to determine an exclusive representative.

7. Establishes bargaining guidelines related to fire departments. SERB shall not designate a unit that includes rank and file members with members who rank lieutenant or above (similar to police departments under current law). A current bargaining unit that does not meet those requirements ceases to be an appropriate unit when their CBA expires, or three years after the bill’s effective date, whichever is earlier. Fire supervisory officers are not subject to collective bargaining.

8. Establishes public employee pay ranges. The amendment reinstates pay ranges, but not step values and automatic increases, in current law. Employees are paid based upon merit within the ranges set in statute. Merit shall be the only basis for an employee’s progression through the schedule. Teachers are paid based upon merit and salaries may be bargained in a CBA. Teacher performance is measured by considering the level of license held by the teacher, whether the teacher is a “highly qualified teacher” as defined in statute, the value-added measure used to determine student performance, the results of performance evaluations, or any other system of evaluation or other criteria established by the board.

9. Establishes guidelines for employee vacation & sick leave. Caps vacation leave at 7.7 hours per biweekly pay period after 19 years of service. Current law caps vacation leave at 9.2 hours per biweekly pay period after 24 years of service. Sick leave for employees in offices of the county, municipal, and civil service township service, and state colleges and universities is accrued at 10 days a year.

10. Clarifies that health care benefits apply equally to all employees.

11. Restores current law as it relates to the School Employees Healthcare Board.

12. Allows all new CBAs to be reopened under a fiscal emergency/watch.

13. Allows teachers to negotiate an initial contract of up to three years. Subsequent contracts are two to five years.

14. Clarifies when faculty at public universities exercise managerial authority, making them management level employees not subject to bargaining.

15. Prohibits length of service from being the sole factor in determining order of layoff and requires compliance with federal anti-discrimination statutes. For teachers, preference is given to teachers under continuing contracts then the school board considers the relative quality of performance (see factors considered in &#8220ublic employee pay ranges,” above) as the principal factor in determining reductions.

wkfan;695766 wrote:No uproar here...I agree with you on the PhD thing. My wife is a thesis away from her PhD, but will not finish the thesis.

However, to say it is a waste of money is overstating it a bit. In her district, there is no 'PhD' column on the pay scale. All someone gets is a $1,000 one time payment for reaching that level while paying for it herself....which would be much, much more than the bonus.

BTW...I know of no school districts in this state that have a 'PhD' column on their master agreement.

When I student taught at Bowling Green City Schools, they had it on their agreement. I also remember taking an Administrative Class taught by a former principal of the high school there. He showed us an entire pay scale of the district. I'm almost positive there was one. I'll have to dig it out and check to make sure.

tk421;696308 wrote:I'm not going to feel sorry for any of the teachers in my district. Just looked at their salaries and I wish I could make 40-50,000/year only working 184 days and retire with close to a $1 million retirement fund.

Well, work your but off for four summers to afford the out of pocket cost of a good college. Then take huge amounts of financial aid to cover the rest. Graduate, sub for a couple of years at $65 a day, work your butt off every summer to compensate for that. Once hired full time, go ahead and find a summer job for the first 6-10 years of teaching, because honestly the salary isn't enough to cover cost of living and student loans. Once you get a little comfortable, then you realize to advance in the teaching profession you have to go back to school, while working full time to get your Master's degree, an additional 30 semester hours, which is another 15 grand, but since you are not rich, take another student loan. Let's see, to keep advancing in the teaching profession, continue taking graduate level courses at your cost, $200 or more per semester hour, and at most districts every 15 semesters will get you a raise. Well, you get the point, stop wishing and go for it, sounds like a breeze right??

OUdidntknow;696792 wrote:Well, work your but off for four summers to afford the out of pocket cost of a good college. Then take huge amounts of financial aid to cover the rest. Graduate, sub for a couple of years at $65 a day, work your butt off every summer to compensate for that. Once hired full time, go ahead and find a summer job for the first 6-10 years of teaching, because honestly the salary isn't enough to cover cost of living and student loans. Once you get a little comfortable, then you realize to advance in the teaching profession you have to go back to school, while working full time to get your Master's degree, an additional 30 semester hours, which is another 15 grand, but since you are not rich, take another student loan. Let's see, to keep advancing in the teaching profession, continue taking graduate level courses at your cost, $200 or more per semester hour, and at most districts every 15 semesters will get you a raise. Well, you get the point, stop wishing and go for it, sounds like a breeze right??

Is this supposed to make me feel sorry for someone going into teaching? No one is forced to go into this field, they all know what it involves. Don't feel a bit sorry for them if they aren't able to all gang up and get a raise every freaking year. Boohoo.

tk421;696802 wrote:Is this supposed to make me feel sorry for someone going into teaching? No one is forced to go into this field, they all know what it involves. Don't feel a bit sorry for them if they aren't able to all gang up and get a raise every freaking year. Boohoo.

No, you just said you wish you could do it, so I was giving you the course that many have taken..And I did know what it involved when I got into teaching, but now what I thought I knew is possibly being stripped away by some power hungry governor.

wkfan;695874 wrote:...and this is one of the problems with teachers, firefighters, police, etc being lambasted and mis-characterized in the press, on television, on the interwebz, etc.

My Father was a newpaper reporter and editor for over 50 years....he taught me to check my facts before I wrote anything...no matter what it was... a paper for a class, an letter to the editor, an news article or a note to a friend.

You cannot assume.

Here are two very good sources from the Toledo Blade that list all public employees in Toledo and the surrounding areas salaries. Yes, many of the top paid employees in schools are administrators, however, there are plenty of teachers making close to $100k in salary, this doesn't include benefits. This shows their gross pay of 2009. I'd say it is pretty cushy. First link shows different public sector employees, second link is just the Toledo Public school teachers. Did I mention that TPS schools have been running $40 million + deficits in recent years?

http://toledobladedata.com/caspio/
http://toledobladedata.com/caspio/TPS.asp

i read that TPS' operating budget is over 300 million$ and that 215 million$ was for employee salaries alone! Everyone from the superindentent all the way to the lowest paid employee need to make sacrifices (in this particular district since it is in emergency).

dwccrew;696876 wrote:i read that TPS' operating budget is over 300 million$ and that 215 million$ was for employee salaries alone! Everyone from the superindentent all the way to the lowest paid employee need to make sacrifices (in this particular district since it is in emergency).

How many times have I mentioned TPS!? I'm telling you, THEY are making the entire state look bad.

dwccrew;696866 wrote:Here are two very good sources from the Toledo Blade that list all public employees in Toledo and the surrounding areas salaries. Yes, many of the top paid employees in schools are administrators, however, there are plenty of teachers making close to $100k in salary, this doesn't include benefits. This shows their gross pay of 2009. I'd say it is pretty cushy. First link shows different public sector employees, second link is just the Toledo Public school teachers. Did I mention that TPS schools have been running $40 million + deficits in recent years?

http://toledobladedata.com/caspio/
http://toledobladedata.com/caspio/TPS.asp

1. 'Close to' =/= 'More than'.
2. No one ever said people in Toledo could manage anything. My sister used to live there and could not get out fast enough. I wish Michigan had won the war.

bigkahuna;696759 wrote:When I student taught at Bowling Green City Schools, they had it on their agreement. I also remember taking an Administrative Class taught by a former principal of the high school there. He showed us an entire pay scale of the district. I'm almost positive there was one. I'll have to dig it out and check to make sure.

I iwould be interested to see if they had it in their agreement....and still do.

wkfan;696961 wrote:I wish Michigan had won the war.

Now that's just funny!

ernest_t_bass;696936 wrote:How many times have I mentioned TPS!? I'm telling you, THEY are making the entire state look bad.

I'm not sure, how many times have you? Toledo is a VERY heavily unionized town, it's not just the teachers that make this town look bad. The unions in every public sector in this city have fucked this place up. Toledo is running huge deficits all over the place.

wkfan;696961 wrote:1. 'Close to' =/= 'More than'.
2. No one ever said people in Toledo could manage anything. My sister used to live there and could not get out fast enough. I wish Michigan had won the war.

Close to in salary alone. Which proves that there is plenty of teachers that make OVER $100k a year in total compensation in TPS. Perhaps Toledo is an anomaly, I haven't researched other Ohio districts as much as Toledo.

dwccrew;696994 wrote:I'm not sure, how many times have you?

It was rhetorical. Was not directed at you. More out of disgust for what they are doing to education.

wkfan;696961 wrote: I wish Michigan had won the war.

Also, come on man, don't hate on Toledo like this. I wouldn't want to be from Michigan!

Seriously, Toledo has so much potential, but our local corrupt politics are so inept and ineffective that this city has been dying for the last 30-40 yrs. Toledo has I-80/90 and I-75 intersect through it, many railroad routes, an airport that could be used more as a freight hub and waterways that lead to the great lakes. How is it that Toledo keeps losing out on potential industry? Our local politics is the answer. They have effectively ran Owens Illinois and Dana (2 multi-billion dollar companies) out of the city limits. Why would anyone else want to aactually set up shop here? Morons.

ernest_t_bass;696997 wrote:It was rhetorical. Was not directed at you. More out of disgust for what they are doing to education.

I agree. I have to be honest and say I don't really know if other districts are as out of control as Toledo is when it comes to running up huge deficits (I certainly hope not). I mean Toledo's city deficit last year was $48 million that they had to try and balance. The TPS school budget was around $38-40 million. When your school system runs a deficit comparable to the city, that is beyond a problem.

dwccrew;697001 wrote:I agree. I have to be honest and say I don't really know if other districts are as out of control as Toledo is when it comes to running up huge deficits (I certainly hope not). I mean Toledo's city deficit last year was $48 million that they had to try and balance. The TPS school budget was around $38-40 million. When your school system runs a deficit comparable to the city, that is beyond a problem.

Here is my district... I posted this in another thread:

Here is what I know...

In my district, every 9-12 student has a laptop, every teacher has a laptop, 4 admins, one super, many AP classes, 3 year old building, HIGH percentage of free/reduced lunches and breakfastseses... and we came out in the BLACK!

We are a rural community, a lot of businesses have left... we make it work!

Reason I say that, our per average expenditure per student was about $3,000 below state average... given all the above.

dwccrew;696994 wrote:Close to in salary alone. Which proves that there is plenty of teachers that make OVER $100k a year in total compensation in TPS. Perhaps Toledo is an anomaly, I haven't researched other Ohio districts as much as Toledo.

Interesting that, when proven wrong, the arguement changes.....

wkfan;697012 wrote:Interesting that, when proven wrong, the arguement changes.....

You were right on the UA, I didn't look at the days. Anyway, I found a few 100k teachers in a few districts around Central Ohio. Olentangy is one, I can't remember who else I looked at.

LJ;697016 wrote:You were right on the UA, I didn't look at the days. Anyway, I found a few 100k teachers in a few districts around Central Ohio. Olentangy is one, I can't remember who else I looked at.

100000 in salary just for teaching? or is that including money they make in supplementals like coaching or breakfast duty etc...i highly doubt 100000 for a teacher. it would be on outlier for sure. even if it were true..several posters said that they thought 100000 was fair for an AP chemistry teacher...

LJ;697016 wrote:You were right on the UA, I didn't look at the days. Anyway, I found a few 100k teachers in a few districts around Central Ohio. Olentangy is one, I can't remember who else I looked at.

If there are any, they are damn far and few between.....and you may be fooled by the # of days, I know I was on one particular person in UA. One in the $90's with a 185 day contract that was a school psychologist. Can't count those as they are not classroom teachers and have specialized degrees, etc.....IMO.

wkfan;697027 wrote:If there are any, they are damn far and few between.....and you may be fooled by the # of days, I know I was on one particular person in UA. One in the $90's with a 185 day contract that was a school psychologist. Can't count those as they are not classroom teachers and have specialized degrees, etc.....IMO.

this...our district is competitive with most olentangy is slightly higher but not by a lot and there is no way even if you teach for 40 years and a phd that you can sniff 100000....only times ive seen it is where a person retires and gets their 40000 pension and then gets rehired for like 67000 and makes a total of 107000