CenterBHSFan;572899 wrote:Same with Rockefeller. It's been on our local news alot lately, being so close to West byGod Virginia.

What about blaming who's REALLY at fault... the democrats!

Rockefeller proving his disdain for the constitution. I he could careless about the 1st amendment, why bother with anything else.

CenterBHSFan;572899 wrote:Same with Rockefeller. It's been on our local news alot lately, being so close to West byGod Virginia.

What about blaming who's REALLY at fault... the democrats!

Has the mantra been forgotten already??? Remember....forever...it's always...

GEORGE W. BUSH'S FAULT

BGFalcons82;573034 wrote:Has the mantra been forgotten already??? Remember....forever...it's always...

GEORGE W. BUSH'S FAULT

Yes that will always be the case. But it's now also Fox News's fault.

The Dems are masters at the blame game....the only problem is no one is buying off on it anymore.

That being said, the North Kommies are idiots.

Forget Carter.

Let's send good old Billy Boy Clinton over so he can broker another deal where we send them billions in aid and they ignore what they agreed to and proceed with strengthening their nuclear program.

Is it really "seeking attention" or "seeing how much we can get away with while the rest of the world does nothing"?

The NorK's are holding Seoul hostage. Any military response by the South or US is feared will brink about he destruction of Seoul. NorK's are hoping to extort concessions and economic aid so they can feed their people and continue build their nuclear capabilities.

Some useful idiot like Carter, or as writer mentioned, Bill Clinton not directly associated with our government and broker a shitty deal. Chalk up another victory for the NorK's.

Pressure is mounting in South Korea amongst the population for a firm military response. After nothing was done after the sinking of a South Korean warship the government is looking increasingly weak.


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/TOE6AN06M.htm

South Korea was attacked by a country with WMD's. Will the world step up and send in troops to overthrow the North Korean goverment and establish a democracy? Cut off all aid to N. Korea until they dismantle their nuclear program and allow inspectors in to make sure they have no nuclear or biological weapons.

Strategic air stikes can take out the N. Korean infrastructure so they can not mount a land war and their missle facilities can easily be blown apart from the air to eliminate any more attacks from the air.

If Iraq taught us one thing it is just how easy it is to destroy an unwanted government and rebuild a country to establish a democratic government.

mella;574052 wrote:If Iraq taught us one thing it is just how easy it is to destroy an unwanted government and rebuild a country to establish a democratic government.

destroy and unwanted government:check

establish a democratic government: easy? hmmm

mella;574052 wrote:South Korea was attacked by a country with WMD's. Will the world step up and send in troops to overthrow the North Korean goverment and establish a democracy? Cut off all aid to N. Korea until they dismantle their nuclear program and allow inspectors in to make sure they have no nuclear or biological weapons.

Strategic air stikes can take out the N. Korean infrastructure so they can not mount a land war and their missle facilities can easily be blown apart from the air to eliminate any more attacks from the air.

If Iraq taught us one thing it is just how easy it is to destroy an unwanted government and rebuild a country to establish a democratic government.

Yeah, not quite the same given North Korea has over 1,000 short and medium range missiles aimed at South Korea and Japan. It would take many sorties to take out those missiles, which are mobile and would probably elude U.S. bombers given our history of poor scud finding in Iraq.

That means that Seoul would most likely take heavy barrages, meaning unless South Korea evacuates the city, many will die.
There is also the unknown factor. That is would North Korea, knowing that its regime would far, use its small nuclear stockpile, which we don't know where it is, against South Korea or U.S. forces.

Given all that, force is not an option and why every administration since HW Bush has not really used military force as an option.

Obviously going to war and dropping bombs is not an option and it should not have been an option with Iraq. But it is interesting that "we" (the rest of the world) had no problem picking on one of the smaller kids on the block but now that N. Korea (the large crazy kid that might be caring a gun) is acting out people are thinking twice and looking for nonagressive solutions.

Cut off all aid and let the N. Koreans decide what direction they want their country to go.

I realize that the N. Koreans are brainwashed and would follow the glorious leader over a cliff or into war but they need to decide since it is their country.

mella;574230 wrote:Obviously going to war and dropping bombs is not an option and it should not have been an option with Iraq. But it is interesting that "we" (the rest of the world) had no problem picking on one of the smaller kids on the block but now that N. Korea (the large crazy kid that might be caring a gun) is acting out people are thinking twice and looking for nonagressive solutions.

Really can't compare the two as there is a big factor I didn't mention that is also really against war: China.
Also, different strategic planning, different rationals and different leaders with different histories.

Cut off all aid and let the N. Koreans decide what direction they want their country to go.

I realize that the N. Koreans are brainwashed and would follow the glorious leader over a cliff or into war but they need to decide since it is their country.

Umm, we pretty much do cut off all aid. Their aid comes from China, who will not let the country fall for fear of spillover into their country. It is kind of hard to punish a country that has nothing of value to punish anymore and has the best black market and shell trading company networks in the world.
Also, the regime is really impressive in oppressing any opposition. It is insanely brutal and has indoctrinated people so far that there will be no uprising once the Dear Leader fianlyl passes. Now, generals may have a power struggle, but that could turn out to be worse.

I agree that the North needs to get direction of their own country, yet there is no viable option for them to chose. They are stuck.

QuakerOats;572687 wrote:I am hearing today, albeit thirdhand at best, that now the thinking is that the missle that fired off the west coast about 2 weeks ago may have come from a Chinese sub

lol

ptown_trojans_1;574334 wrote:I agree that the North needs to get direction of their own country, yet there is no viable option for them to chose. They are stuck.

Stuck? If so, they choose to be stuck.

I read the other day that S. Korea stills supports and gives aid to N. Korea. I am sure that we could pressure S. Korea to stop their aid. I am definately not a diplomat nor a scholar of international affairs. I tend to see things in black and white. We were attacked on 9/11 and did not waste time in "seeking out those responsible." Even though that is debatable. S. Korea is attack and everyone knows who did it but retaliation should be diplomatic not militaristic. I totally understand that N. korea is run by crazies who would not hestitate in going nuclear so being subtle is necessary.

mella;574624 wrote:I read the other day that S. Korea stills supports and gives aid to N. Korea. I am sure that we could pressure S. Korea to stop their aid. I am definately not a diplomat nor a scholar of international affairs. I tend to see things in black and white. We were attacked on 9/11 and did not waste time in "seeking out those responsible." Even though that is debatable. S. Korea is attack and everyone knows who did it but retaliation should be diplomatic not militaristic. I totally understand that N. korea is run by crazies who would not hestitate in going nuclear so being subtle is necessary.

True. Iraq to North Korea is apples to oranges. The Chinese and the United States now have a very deep economic bond that would cause some very sticky issues if either party intervened in the NorK mess which is precisely why the North Koreans feel free to provoke and antagonize at will to get what they want.

Nothing will change in North Korea short of internal revolution or subtle political and economic "encouragement" at the hands of their Chi-com neighbors. The United States is basically powerless to do anything unless the NorKs get radical and cross the DMZ. The Japanese are content to sit back and let the Chicoms and Americans lose sleep over it.

believer;574914 wrote:True. Iraq to North Korea is apples to oranges. The Chinese and the United States now have a very deep economic bond that would cause some very sticky issues if either party intervened in the NorK mess which is precisely why the North Koreans feel free to provoke and antagonize at will to get what they want.

Nothing will change in North Korea short of internal revolution or subtle political and economic "encouragement" at the hands of their Chi-com neighbors. The United States is basically powerless to do anything unless the NorKs get radical and cross the DMZ. The Japanese are content to sit back and let the Chicoms and Americans lose sleep over it.

Agreed.

In fact, I've talked to and read many statements by Japanese officials who do not see North Korea as a real threat anymore. Instead, all they talk about is China.

I think sums up how the Chinese feel about not getting too involved in North Korea:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/24/AR2010112407028_2.html?wpisrc=nl_headline&sid=ST2010112302868

"North Korea is our East Germany," said one senior Chinese security official interviewed in Beijing over the summer. "Do you remember what happened when East Germany collapsed? The Soviet Union fell."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GofjDDWX_M

Anyone who thinks the contrail is from a commercial jet is either blind or nuts ........

QuakerOats;608396 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GofjDDWX_M

Anyone who thinks the contrail is from a commercial jet is either blind or nuts ........

ptown_trojans_1;572718 wrote:It was a plane, in all probability.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/10/national/main7041217.shtml
http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3136/it-aint-no-thing

1. The Chinese have no subs that can fire that missile yet.
2. Even if they did, the sub would be so loud we would detect it before it would get to our coast.
3. The most obvious and likely outcome was a plane contrail.

What I stated earlier. It is an optical illusion. Plus, I still stand by the fact that China does not have the capability to deploy a sub that close to the U.S. without us knowing.

Also, an image during that video was a Russian sub, not Chinese.

Besides, I don't believe in conspiracies.

It is CLEARLY not a plane contrail; that much I know.


{And, TWA 800 didn't just happen to explode and fall out of the sky.}

These two need to simmer down until at least I'm out of the pacific ocean in the begining of february, I really don't want to be out longer than a month right now.

QuakerOats;608942 wrote:It is CLEARLY not a plane contrail; that much I know.


{And, TWA 800 didn't just happen to explode and fall out of the sky.}

Well, I'll believe experts who study this for a living over you. Plus, I go by the most obvious, logical, and most probable answer, not some conspiracy.

By the way, as predicted, the North caved on responding to the South Korean live drill the other day. Tensions have cooled as expected. Richardson being there has led to the North offering the new enrichment facility to IAEA inspectors.

The key is to break the cycle by the North. But, I don't think anyone has a real strategy on how to do that.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/20/AR2010122005890.html

I believe it is "experts" who were quoted as saying that the contrail is not from a jet. However, even those with modest knowledge of aviation can easily see it is not a jet's contrail. There is no "conspiracy" about the interpretation of the video; it is right in front of our eyes. I cannot say whose missile it is --- heck, maybe it was ours --- but it is clearly a missle of some sort.

QuakerOats;609088 wrote:I believe it is "experts" who were quoted as saying that the contrail is not from a jet. However, even those with modest knowledge of aviation can easily see it is not a jet's contrail. There is no "conspiracy" about the interpretation of the video; it is right in front of our eyes. I cannot say whose missile it is --- heck, maybe it was ours --- but it is clearly a missle of some sort.

1. The experts weren't named.
2. Even if they were, the sources are clearly right wing, who have an obvious bias towards anything China.
3. None of the "experts" were Chinese experts or sub experts.
4. The link I provided comes from scientists who do this stuff for a living, contrails.
5. The rational that it is a missile and not the simplest answer is absurd to me.
6. As someone who studies missiles myself, it does not look like a missile to me.

The feds and the military have themselves boxed in. They are relying on this to die quickly and become scrap paper for the litter box. That is their strategy by reporting they don't know what it was or whom was responsible.

The box:
1. They CANNOT say it was a Chinese missile being fired off within a few miles of the US coast. Or any other country. That would send panic through the streets.
2. They would have said it was one of ours if it was indeed, one of ours.
3. If it was a plane, they would have said it was a plane immediately and the story would have had a truthful ending. Since they said they didn't know and couldn't fabricate a story quickly enough, they have chosen to go with silence and ignorance as a communication strategy. The feds/ military aren't quite used to people taking videos of everything and anything....and they can't control it.

The strategy and lack of communication point to an answer that they cannot tell us. Otherwise, this would have been so over.