Sykotyk;642950 wrote:We're not talking about the general health of the school in how it affects the students in the halls. We're discussing how it affects the sports teams (namely, Football). I agree, there's a lot of problems with certain schools. Allowing the best students a free ticket out just exacerbates the problem. Now, you have an even higher concentration of the lowlifes clogging the system.

You are making the assumption that the best students are the best football players. In many cases, that simply isn't true. Many of those that are in your words "lowlifes clogging the system" are great athletes. If what you say is true and they couldn't be accepted to a private school, doesn't that give the public school an advantage?

sherm03;642978 wrote:You may say I'm naive, or stupid, or whatever...but I really think you're mistaken. I think the private schools would definitely give those kids a chance. Private schools are dependent on tuition money. I honestly don't think they are going to turn away students. However, if the kid causes trouble once at the school...yes, they will bounce them. But to say they will not even give the kid a chance is not fair, IMO.

Yes, some private schools have entrance exams to be accepted into the school. But those private schools are generally the bigger D1 schools like St. X, Moeller, Iggy, and St. Ed's. But the smaller private schools have placement tests just to get an idea for where the student is at. I have honestly never seen Mooney turn away a student that wanted to go there.

Well, things work differently in Akron than in Youngstown. Walsh, CVCA, SVSM and Hoban all have entrance exams. Walsh and CVCA are very rigorous. Hoban is perhaps a bit less taxing and SVSM has even more wiggle room, but they all have a minimum standard.

Viking;642997 wrote:Well, things work differntly in Akron than in Youngstown. Walsh, CVCA, SVSM and Hoban all have entrance exams. Walsh and CVCA are very rigorous. Hoban is perhaps a bit less taxing and SVSM has even more wiggle room, but they all have a minimum standard.

But I thought the private schools were all about money and football is a cash cow? What if a stud football player can't meet the minimum standard? You guys can't have it both ways on this argument. Do the private schools cheat and take the best football players? Or do they just take the best and brightest minds? Or is it that they just take the best football players that are also the smartest students?

sherm03 thank you for proving the point to my question. I have another question for you guys? Two students apply to Ohio State student A has a 13 on the ACT and has a 2.1 GPA while student B has a 28 ACT and a 3.6 which student will be accepted into Ohio State.

Ursuline High School Transfer to high school criteria:

Admission of Students to the Freshman Class


Students from the Catholic elementary schools within the Diocese of Youngstown are admitted unconditionally if the following criteria have been met:

Satisfactory performance on the placement exam (Explore),
Completion of the admission forms, and
Average or better achievement in their eighth grade course of study
Students from schools other than diocesan Catholic elementary schools may be admitted based upon the following criteria:

Satisfactory performance on the placement exam (Explore),
Completion of the admission forms,
Average or better achievement in their eighth grade course of study, and
Satisfactory Disciplinary & Attendance Records
Once the above items have been submitted and satisfactorily reviewed by the Ursuline administration, an interview with the Associate Principal will be scheduled for the student and his/her parent or guardian. Following the interview, an admission decision will be made by the Ursuline administration and conveyed to the parent/guardian.


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Admission of Transfer Students

Ursuline High School does not ordinarily admit transfer students in their senior year. The only exceptions will be for students transferring in from another Catholic high school, for students moving into the Ursuline High School district, or for students with extraordinary pastoral needs. Freshman, sophomore, and junior transfer students may be admitted based on the following criteria:

Completion of the admissions forms,
Satisfactory High School Transcript,
Satisfactory Disciplinary & Attendance Records, and
An interview with the Associate Principal


Attendance and disciplinary records to be considered by anyone wishing to transfer in other than the kids already in their elementary system.

Yeah, they will take them all!

I'm getting information from a buddy of mine that grew up in Youngstown. He states that back in the 70's and 80's and maybe the 90's there was a seperate school for your "bad kids". Not the kids with learning disabilities but the ones with severe behavorial problems. Does anyone know what that school is called? I think it is a bigger problem with state funding being cut and the fact that public schoools have to allow violent students (Chaney) to co exist with the kids that are there to learn.

Walsh and CVCA only accept top notch students. Hoban makes some exceptions and SVSM makes more exceptions. Is it a coincidence that Walsh and CVCA don't do as well in football as Hoban and SVSM?

Also, none of those schools are forced to deal with kids that are major disruptions or that have learning disabilities. The percentage of kids with IEP's is much higher at public schools than at private schools.

Viking;643123 wrote:Walsh and CVCA only accept top notch students. Hoban makes some exceptions and SVSM makes more exceptions. Is it a coincidence that Walsh and CVCA don't do as well in football as Hoban and SVSM?

So the advantage goes to the schools that accept more students? Wouldn't that give the public schools the advantage? You keep switching sides here.

Viking;643123 wrote:Walsh and CVCA only accept top notch students. Hoban makes some exceptions and SVSM makes more exceptions. Is it a coincidence that Walsh and CVCA don't do as well in football as Hoban and SVSM?

Also, none of those schools are forced to deal with kids that are major disruptions or that have learning disabilities. The percentage of kids with IEP's is much higher at public schools than at private schools.

Historically Walsh has performed better than Hoban in football and Akron St. V's has been at the same level as Walsh this decade. State tournament participation.

Cuyahoga Falls Walsh Jesuit - 2008, 2007, 2006, 2004, 2002, 2001, 1999 (1st), 1998 (2nd), 1997, 1995, 1994, 1993, 1989, 1986, 1985

Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary - 2010, 2009, 2007, 2005, 2002, 2001, 1999, 1991, 1988 (1st), 1983, 1982 (1st), 1981 (1st), 1979 (2nd), 1974, 1972 (1st)



Akron Archbishop Hoban - 2009, 2008, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998

^^^

Thanks for all the stats. I see that you left out CVCA. Since 2000 Hoban has a slight edge on Walsh. Walsh has been ahead of SVSM. The bottom line is that none of these schools have to deal with many major headaches. If SVSM does take a risk on a "borderline" kid they can get rid of that kid quickly if the kid causes problems. Public schools have to play the cards that they are dealt. Private schools can pick their cards. it is easier to get aces that way.

Viking;643207 wrote:^^^

Thanks for all the stats. I see that you left out CVCA. Since 2000 Hoban has a slight edge on Walsh. Walsh has been ahead of SVSM. The bottom line is that none of these schools have to deal with many major headaches. If SVSM does take a risk on a "borderline" kid they can get rid of that kid quickly iof the kid causes problems. Public schools have to play the cards that they are dealt. Private schools can pick their cards. it is easier to get aces that way.

So can you please explain how that relates to free lunches and why ALL of those students should act as dividers for the school they attend?

Viking;643207 wrote:^^^

Thanks for all the stats. I see that you left out CVCA. Since 2000 Hoban has a slight edge on Walsh. Walsh has been ahead of SVSM. The bottom line is that none of these schools have to deal with many major headaches. If SVSM does take a risk on a "borderline" kid they can get rid of that kid quickly iof the kid causes problems. Public schools have to play the cards that they are dealt. Private schools can pick their cards. it is easier to get aces that way.

My mistake.

Cuyahoga Falls Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy - 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2003

The one thing I remember about Hoban was the trash they talked in 2008 about how football was better in NEO and the fact that they were a private school which equalled them winning. They assumed that the boys from Sylvania Southview were farm boys which was hilarious since Sylvania is a wealthy suburb. Even one of your local Akron rado stations interviewed our coach and was very disrespectful and was like, "who are you guys I never heard of you". Well Hoban got their asses handed to them 31-0 and if it wasn't snowing we would have put 60 on them. So I really don't regard Hoban as an elite football program when they don't have the titles to show that they are.

dota out at wgh tonight...reardon leaving for wgh?

Uh ohhhhh.

sherm03;643257 wrote:So can you please explain how that relates to free lunches and why ALL of those students should act as dividers for the school they attend?

Once again, many students that receive free lunches won't be able to play a sport because they must work or go home to take care of family members. Many of these kids also have IEP's. Most private schools only have a handful of these kids while some public schools have a majority. Using this as a divider provides a more realistic number of the actual amount of kids available for sports.

Viking;643428 wrote:Once again, many students that receive free lunches won't be able to play a sport because they must work or go home to take care of family members. Many of these kids also have IEP's. Most private schools only have a handful of these kids while some public schools have a majority. Using this as a divider provides a more realistic number of the actual amount of kids available for sports.

Well then Campbell is just the most amazing team ever. I mean, almost 72% of students on free lunches, and...not only are they able to field a team with all those students working jobs and going home to take care of family members...but they're able to go 9-1 last year! You're right! They got hosed and should have been put down in D5 instead! Maybe then they would have had a better chance at having a good season!

And I have no problem with students who have disabilities severe enough to require an IED not being counted. However, there needs to be something that says that if a student is disabled and does not count towards the school's division assignment, then they are ineligible to participate in sports. I mean let's face it...a kid with ADD could technically have an IED. But that same kid could be an absolute stud on the football field. So just having an IED should not be enough to count as a divider.

Keep going, I love shooting down all of your "reasoning" here.

Viking;643428 wrote:Once again, many students that receive free lunches won't be able to play a sport because they must work or go home to take care of family members. Many of these kids also have IEP's. Most private schools only have a handful of these kids while some public schools have a majority. Using this as a divider provides a more realistic number of the actual amount of kids available for sports.

Why are students receiving free lunches any more likely to have to take care of a family member than someone not getting a free lunch?

Viking;643428 wrote:Once again, many students that receive free lunches won't be able to play a sport because they must work or go home to take care of family members. Many of these kids also have IEP's. Most private schools only have a handful of these kids while some public schools have a majority. Using this as a divider provides a more realistic number of the actual amount of kids available for sports.

There are not that many kids in the inner city (males) that fall into that category. Or a large majority of the kids that receive free lunches have never had any structure therefore they refuse to listen to anyone especially a coach. Also what about the many studs that would much rather sling rocks or get high instead of participating in athletics. At Southview there are two brothers both are massive one is a senior and is about 6"6 300 the other is a sophmore and he is 6"3 280 both would much rather get high than play football.

Al Bundy;643462 wrote:Why are students receiving free lunches any more likely to have to take care of a family member than someone not getting a free lunch?

The chances that the kid is from a single parent home is greater. Mom is at work. The kid has to be at home with the younger children. Middle class families are more likely to have paid baby sitters.

rmolin73;643466 wrote:There are not that many kids in the inner city (males) that fall into that category. Or a large majority of the kids that receive free lunches have never had any structure therefore they refuse to listen to anyone especially a coach. Also what about the many studs that would much rather sling rocks or get high instead of participating in athletics. At Southview there are two brothers both are massive one is a senior and is about 6"6 300 the other is a sophmore and he is 6"3 280 both would much rather get high than play football.

Hmm. Since you live in a suburb I'm sure that you are an expert on urban youth. The more you post the more your bigotry shine through.

That's a first time I've ever been called a bigot. Dude I grew up in Valdosta, Georgia and we lived in the hood my parents still do they refuse to leave my dad is stubborn. We were no where near rich so yeah I can speak about what it means to be an urban youth because I was one! I had tons of friends that were athletes that decided that the dope game was better than playing football but since our program was established and we had a great coaching staff we continued to excel. So what is your response now Viking? Or are you just being a pool hall punk?

rmolin73;643479 wrote:So what is your response now Viking? Or are you just being a pool hall punk?

He just won't respond when he is proven wrong (see: my post showing that Campbell went 9-1 despite having 72% of their students on the free lunch program). He seemed to just gloss right over my post because it doesn't fit in with his argument.

That cracked me off and light weight pissed me off for him to assume one thing about me and call me a bigot. I don't know that many Black/Cuban guys that are bigots lol I may be the first.

Al Bundy;642982 wrote:You are making the assumption that the best students are the best football players. In many cases, that simply isn't true. Many of those that are in your words "lowlifes clogging the system" are great athletes. If what you say is true and they couldn't be accepted to a private school, doesn't that give the public school an advantage?

I've never said that. My point is that ENROLLMENT is the only factor used to separate teams. So, ALL of the students admitted into the school count towards that school's enrollment total. If I get to put a cap, a threshold, requirement, etc against any potential student from entering my school, I control enrollment. Yet, I still can let the best in. The public can 'let the best in' as well, but they have to take the worst as well. They have no choice. So, their enrollment number keeps ticking upward long after the private school reached their quota, cutoff, or simply no longer can find anyone qualified to enter the school.

If a particular group of the overall enrollment is the only factor in determining division, then the way that enrollment is reached must be taken into account.

Sykotyk

Sykotyk;643523 wrote:I've never said that. My point is that ENROLLMENT is the only factor used to separate teams. So, ALL of the students admitted into the school count towards that school's enrollment total. If I get to put a cap, a threshold, requirement, etc against any potential student from entering my school, I control enrollment. Yet, I still can let the best in. The public can 'let the best in' as well, but they have to take the worst as well. They have no choice. So, their enrollment number keeps ticking upward long after the private school reached their quota, cutoff, or simply no longer can find anyone qualified to enter the school.

If a particular group of the overall enrollment is the only factor in determining division, then the way that enrollment is reached must be taken into account.

Sykotyk

Open enrollment schools can choose who they do or don't take as students from outside their district. The students that you are talking about that the public school has to take may not be great students, but they could be great football players. Great football players are often poor students. If you look at the percent of students getting free lunch and the football success of a school, there seems to be little to no correlation. I did the numbers for Mahoning County. Western Reserve had the second fewest number of free lunches (less than Ursuline and Mooney). I don't know of anyone who would say that Western Reserve has a football advantage over Ursuline and Mooney.