Is it time for private schools to have theyre own playoffs in football

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Al Bundy

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4,180 posts
Jan 18, 2011 12:46 AM
omemorialhigh;642166 wrote:how can i see what academic grades private schools are given by the state? i cant seem to find it on odes web page...al bundy can you direct me

Here is the link to OGT results that you can find for private schools. OGT results are what is used as the components of the other high schools on the state report card. http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=263&ContentID=832&Content=93823
Jan 18, 2011 12:46am
redstreak one's avatar

redstreak one

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1,152 posts
Jan 18, 2011 8:19 AM
rmolin73;642177 wrote:That right there makes absolutely no sense.
Why? Are you saying that with a voucher the private school will take anyone, no matter what kind of trouble or grades they have from the past? If you can guarantee me that every kid in a failing school in Youngstown was given a voucher and steps foot in the private school at the beginning of the school year and makes it to October count I will stop with my protesting a change!
Jan 18, 2011 8:19am
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Rocket08

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645 posts
Jan 18, 2011 9:14 AM
Another issue that goes on in Youngstown (and probably other areas) is the rise of Charter Schools which can take kids from Public Grade schools. Many of the students that Public School supporters claim as "theirs" have spent most of their Grade School time in these schools. The progression to the Private Schools (Mooney, Ursuline, Youngstown Christian, Warren JFK) is actually quite natural

People have a choice in America. That's a good thing
Jan 18, 2011 9:14am
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redstreak one

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Jan 18, 2011 9:52 AM
^^^^^But some of us are arguing that not everyone has a choice! There is a percentage of the population that private schools will not allow through their doors. These students by law have to be taken into a public school if they live in that district. Now, the public school can take steps but if a kid has an IEP you cannot expel them!
Jan 18, 2011 9:52am
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Rocket08

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645 posts
Jan 18, 2011 10:28 AM
redstreak

What's the Mission of the Public School System?
Jan 18, 2011 10:28am
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redstreak one

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Jan 18, 2011 11:00 AM
What does the mission of public schools have to do with this discussion?
Jan 18, 2011 11:00am
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Thinthickbigred

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4,148 posts
Jan 18, 2011 12:04 PM
Rocket08;642508 wrote:redstreak

What's the Mission of the Public School System?

Which public school system ? They are all different.
Jan 18, 2011 12:04pm
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Thinthickbigred

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4,148 posts
Jan 18, 2011 12:07 PM
What is the mission of the catholic diocese?
Answer...Money money money and more money and some change and some more money and football is a cash cow so more money and more Bingo and more money and gold and money and then some more money and money ... Oh I forgot there is more than one diocese... But I think the mission statement is the same ..... Money money money and more money...
Jan 18, 2011 12:07pm
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Rocket08

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645 posts
Jan 18, 2011 1:06 PM
You just continue to show what a stupid jerk you are
Jan 18, 2011 1:06pm
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Rocket08

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645 posts
Jan 18, 2011 1:07 PM
redstreak one;642546 wrote:What does the mission of public schools have to do with this discussion?

So, you don't know
Jan 18, 2011 1:07pm
A

Al Bundy

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4,180 posts
Jan 18, 2011 1:21 PM
Rocket08;642508 wrote:redstreak

What's the Mission of the Public School System?

Here are the mission and vision statements of Youngstown City Schools.

Mission: The Youngstown City School District, in partnership with parents and the community, is a beacon of hope, committed to academic excellence and preparing all learners to become productive, responsible citizens of a global society.

Vision: The YCSD will be a source of pride for the entire Mahoning Valley, with its buildings functioning as hubs of academic and community activities throughout the year. Employing state-of-the-art technology, research-based educational practices, and partnerships with parents and the community, all learners will meet and surpass state standards, and the YCSD will be a model of success as an academic and community resource.

http://www.youngstown.k12.oh.us/departments/admininstration/mission_vision.html

I think it is fair to say that Youngstown City Schools are failing in reaching their mission and vision.
Jan 18, 2011 1:21pm
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redstreak one

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Jan 18, 2011 1:37 PM
Thats your argument about denying enrollment, the public schools are failing to live up to their mission statement so those kids leave to greener pastures? While me and many others have pointed out the fact that those greener pastures are held up by denying the very enrollment of the kids at the failing public schools. See the cycle?

You cant hand pick who you will take, then pat yourself on the back for over achieving!

And I know my schools mission and vision statement, its just immaterial for this discussion.
Jan 18, 2011 1:37pm
A

Al Bundy

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4,180 posts
Jan 18, 2011 1:49 PM
redstreak one;642769 wrote:Thats your argument about denying enrollment, the public schools are failing to live up to their mission statement so those kids leave to greener pastures? While me and many others have pointed out the fact that those greener pastures are held up by denying the very enrollment of the kids at the failing public schools. See the cycle?

You cant hand pick who you will take, then pat yourself on the back for over achieving!

And I know my schools mission and vision statement, its just immaterial for this discussion.
I was just listing the reasons for vouchers. I believe everyone deserves a chance an education. If the district he/she lives in can't provide that opportunity, the student deserves the right to look for other alternatives.
Jan 18, 2011 1:49pm
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redstreak one

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Jan 18, 2011 1:55 PM
I agree and at the individual level this is a good thing for kids to want to better themselves. My point is, many at these public schools could freely bail and leave, they just dont want to because their education means butkus to them. The only way they would leave to go to a better performing district is if you paid them, litteraly paid them cash! Thats the kids I argue shouldnt count against the public schools numbers when counting for division in athletics.
Jan 18, 2011 1:55pm
A

Al Bundy

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4,180 posts
Jan 18, 2011 2:07 PM
redstreak one;642791 wrote:I agree and at the individual level this is a good thing for kids to want to better themselves. My point is, many at these public schools could freely bail and leave, they just dont want to because their education means butkus to them. The only way they would leave to go to a better performing district is if you paid them, litteraly paid them cash! Thats the kids I argue shouldnt count against the public schools numbers when counting for division in athletics.

How do you decide who to count and not count? Just because a kid doens't care about school, doesn't mean he isn't a stud on the football field. Many 4.0 students have no interest in sports. Should they be counted in enrollment numbers for atletic divisions?
Jan 18, 2011 2:07pm
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Bigdogg

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1,429 posts
Jan 18, 2011 2:56 PM
Al Bundy;642806 wrote:How do you decide who to count and not count? Just because a kid doens't care about school, doesn't mean he isn't a stud on the football field. Many 4.0 students have no interest in sports. Should they be counted in enrollment numbers for atletic divisions?

By you logic then we should only count the number of kids that actually play? Why is it more valid to continue to do it the way it has always been done? Lets come up with something that is fair to all.
Jan 18, 2011 2:56pm
A

Al Bundy

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4,180 posts
Jan 18, 2011 3:21 PM
Bigdogg;642865 wrote:By you logic then we should only count the number of kids that actually play? Why is it more valid to continue to do it the way it has always been done? Lets come up with something that is fair to all.

I think it is more valid to count the kids that a school has. I'm not sure how it is fair to look at what a kid eats for lunch or how good his school was 4 years ago to determine divisions. I listed the free/reduced lunch numbers earlier for Mahoning County. Western Reserve had the second lowest percentage on the list (behind Canfield). I don't know of too many people who would argue that Western Reserve is the second best program in Mahoning County. If we look at the athletic tradition multiplier, Mooney had several years of bad records in the early 2000's. Should the "athletic tradition" on a 4 year cycle move them down a division since they couldn't compete for a few years? If you want to have a multiplier that takes into effect where a school can draw from that is fine. Just treat open enrollment and private schools in the same way with that multiplier.
Jan 18, 2011 3:21pm
sherm03's avatar

sherm03

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Jan 18, 2011 3:24 PM
Bigdogg;642865 wrote:By you logic then we should only count the number of kids that actually play? Why is it more valid to continue to do it the way it has always been done? Lets come up with something that is fair to all.

The point is, not counting a student because he gets free lunch makes as much sense as not counting a kid who is a complete bookworm and has no interest in sports at all.

In both cases, the idea is completely ridiculous, and makes no sense. If a kid doesn't care about academics at his school, it doesn't mean that he can't/won't play football and potentially be very good. Yet, under this proposal this student would act as a divider. Whereas, there are a number of students who are really into academics and the speech team and the drama club and could care less about playing a sport. Why do those kids still count because they don't get a free lunch?

The idea behind the proposal just doesn't make sense.
Jan 18, 2011 3:24pm
sherm03's avatar

sherm03

I go balls deep.

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Jan 18, 2011 3:27 PM
Al Bundy;642884 wrote:I think it is more valid to count the kids that a school has. I'm not sure how it is fair to look at what a kid eats for lunch or how good his school was 4 years ago to determine divisions. I listed the free/reduced lunch numbers earlier for Mahoning County. Western Reserve had the second lowest percentage on the list (behind Canfield). I don't know of too many people who would argue that Western Reserve is the second best program in Mahoning County. If we look at the athletic tradition multiplier, Mooney had several years of bad records in the early 2000's. Should the "athletic tradition" on a 4 year cycle move them down a division since they couldn't compete for a few years? If you want to have a multiplier that takes into effect where a school can draw from that is fine. Just treat open enrollment and private schools in the same way with that multiplier.
THIS!
Jan 18, 2011 3:27pm
V

Viking

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350 posts
Jan 18, 2011 4:20 PM
At an urban school the kids on the debate team could be eligible for a "free lunch". The point is that many kids that are part of the "free lunch" program come from single parent homes. The kid might want to play a sport but can't because he must work or must baby sit younger family members. Many kids in that situation sadly have very little support at home. The free lunch count is a better way of acknowledging the amount of kids that are actually available.
Jan 18, 2011 4:20pm
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Thinthickbigred

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4,148 posts
Jan 18, 2011 4:23 PM
Rocket08;642725 wrote:You just continue to show what a stupid jerk you are

coming from you thats a step up ... You continue to show how profound you are.
Jan 18, 2011 4:23pm
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rmolin73

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4,278 posts
Jan 18, 2011 4:35 PM
redstreak one;642375 wrote:Why? Are you saying that with a voucher the private school will take anyone, no matter what kind of trouble or grades they have from the past? If you can guarantee me that every kid in a failing school in Youngstown was given a voucher and steps foot in the private school at the beginning of the school year and makes it to October count I will stop with my protesting a change!

The part that I don't understand is if the private schools are out for the almighty dollar then why do they have enrollment standards? I mean would they not try to manipulate the system so that they can make money? Just curious about that statement.
Jan 18, 2011 4:35pm
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redstreak one

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Jan 18, 2011 4:38 PM
The brainiac bookworm, the stud football player who doesnt like school, the debate team kids whoever else you guys want to parade as a reason for not considering socio economics in a multiplier still doesnt account for every kid mentioned by you guys wouldn most likely NOT be denied enrollment in a Private school.

The kids I am talking about would be denied enrollment at a private school. Like a kid who assaults a teacher, kids who bounce from house to house because they cant make rent or the kid whose parents are strung out and barely know they are alive. These are the kids I am talking about, the ones that you guys know wouldnt be welcome in private schools!
Jan 18, 2011 4:38pm
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Sykotyk

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Jan 18, 2011 4:39 PM
Al Bundy;642064 wrote:Kids deserve a chance to learn. Let's look at the situation that is going on at Youngstown Chaney. There have been so many fights there, that it is basically impossible to have a learning environment. The school district refuses to expel kids because they don't want to lose the $$$$. The superintendent has asked pastors and mininisters to come in to watch the halls during class changes to help cut down on the fights. I know of two teachers who have been hit by students and none of the students have been expelled. Don't the kids that go there and truly want to learn and go to college deserve that chance?

We're not talking about the general health of the school in how it affects the students in the halls. We're discussing how it affects the sports teams (namely, Football). I agree, there's a lot of problems with certain schools. Allowing the best students a free ticket out just exacerbates the problem. Now, you have an even higher concentration of the lowlifes clogging the system.

rmolin73;642177 wrote:That right there makes absolutely no sense.


Example: If Youngstown City Schools are failing, the students are eligible to go elsewhere, courtesy of the state. If ALL the students left to Cardinal Mooney and Ursuline, would that not lower CMHS and UHS test averages, introduce the bad behavior causing problems in the public schools. Just because they have a check from the state doesn't mean the private school has to take them. Nor does it mean that other OE schools have to take them.

It's great to think they're getting 'free money' by bringing in these distressed students from the failing public school.

CMHS and UHS may take the best, brightest, most willing to learn, the most engaged and earnest students from the public schools gripping a voucher,... but they sure as hell won't take the pothead held back two years with a 0.0 GPA and no intention of ever contributing at all.

Once again,... why? Because they don't have to take anyone if they don't want to. Check or no check.

Sykotyk
Jan 18, 2011 4:39pm
sherm03's avatar

sherm03

I go balls deep.

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Jan 18, 2011 5:08 PM
redstreak one;642949 wrote:The brainiac bookworm, the stud football player who doesnt like school, the debate team kids whoever else you guys want to parade as a reason for not considering socio economics in a multiplier still doesnt account for every kid mentioned by you guys wouldn most likely NOT be denied enrollment in a Private school.

The kids I am talking about would be denied enrollment at a private school. Like a kid who assaults a teacher, kids who bounce from house to house because they cant make rent or the kid whose parents are strung out and barely know they are alive. These are the kids I am talking about, the ones that you guys know wouldnt be welcome in private schools!
You may say I'm naive, or stupid, or whatever...but I really think you're mistaken. I think the private schools would definitely give those kids a chance. Private schools are dependent on tuition money. I honestly don't think they are going to turn away students. However, if the kid causes trouble once at the school...yes, they will bounce them. But to say they will not even give the kid a chance is not fair, IMO.

Yes, some private schools have entrance exams to be accepted into the school. But those private schools are generally the bigger D1 schools like St. X, Moeller, Iggy, and St. Ed's. But the smaller private schools have placement tests just to get an idea for where the student is at. I have honestly never seen Mooney turn away a student that wanted to go there.
Jan 18, 2011 5:08pm