Bigdogg;590240 wrote:100% of their kids are from somebody else school district.

Do you mean to imply that the public school systems have some right to any child?

tsst_fballfan;590260 wrote:[sarcasm]Yes boo hoo. Thanks for bringing your A-game to the debate with the typical crying comment.

And I was pointing out that public schools don't have a choice. aka different guidelines.

Public schools have a choice. They can be set up any way they like. Cincinnati Academy of Physical Education was a powerhouse in a small school division years ago. They had NOTHING BUT athletes in their school, and they dominated in sports, naturally. But public schools CHOOSE by law to be set up the way they are. If they're not competitive, then that's their fault and not the fault of the privates. Some folks see the privates doing pretty well and want the privates to change, when the problem isn't the privates, it's the way the publics are set up. Change the publics, don't be making things up about the privates and complaining it isn't fair.

tsst_fballfan;590260 wrote:[sarcasm]Yes boo hoo. Thanks for bringing your A-game to the debate with the typical crying comment.

And I was pointing out that public schools don't have a choice. aka different guidelines.

We could just go to 700 divisions. It is pretty clear that you grew up in a world where everyone was just given trophies instead of having to earn them. Enjoy your juice box.

Nope not at all. Do you deny that private schools do not have to take and keep every student that walks in the door? Do you deny that public schools have parents that could care less if their child went to school? We are talking about advantages and disadvantage as it pertains to DSJ's football program as compared to other D-6 public schools football teams. Do a little research regarding social-economic status and parental participation as it pertains to successful schools and students.

Having everybody stand up that attended DSJ since the 6th grade is an insult to everyone's intelligence and misses the point completely. Most people who are familiar with your school know it's not like the urban schools who kids go where they know they can win.

Thinthickbigred;590052 wrote:Smoke and mirrors.....I know my team isnt going anywhere,but I really do feel bad for the small towns that do have to play teams like Ursulin and DSJ....When you have a smaller populated school that goes and invites kids from a bigger district to play for them and they field a team that is easily 2 classes better than your average small school ..that is a problem for the smaller schools....You guys have the same argument and it does not fly ...There also is almost no frigging way to proove illegalities against a private school but it is far easier to proove an illegal action has tyaken place against a public school.....The open enrollment thing just doesnt fly either ..Its disproportionate..No normal d-3 school has an offensive line that averages 260 or better every year ..its crazy..smoke and mirrors is all you guys throw up ..You confuse people who are not as in tune with the reality of things .and that is a whole lot of people ...

thinthick, you can feel bad if you want to, but I can't seem to tune in to that channel. Should I? Specifically, from what you know about Ironton's program, which I support, should I feel bad for their chances of making the playoffs and/or advancing in the state tournament? Maybe we got it all wrong. We have this crazy notion that we beat Hartley this year when we didn't fumble but made them fumble and we did shut down Key and then we lost to them when Key got almost back on track and we fumbled ourselves twice late in the game no less. Nothing about being poor or southern or not-catholic enters into the thinking. (Maybe a little whining about having to drive a long way to games sometimes). Instead it feels like it is mostly 'on-us' as to getting ready for the big games. Is this just the wrong attitude?

Tiernan;590137 wrote:I'm all for parental choice Sherm...and if a private school offers better educational opportunities both academic and athletic by all means take adavantage of it if you can afford to. But I'm beginning to wonder whether the perennial Catholic powerhouses (ex..Ursuline, Mooney, DeSales, Xavier, Watterson...et al) really feel like Champions after defeating a number of public schools that are clearly not competitively in their class. I would think these kids, coaches and fan bases would welcome the opportunity to match skill & strategy with teams of like ability. Maybe I'm way off base here and they are happy to pummel the publics throughout the play-offs.

From what I heard from a friend in Columbus, Hartley was actually quite proud of beating Ironton then Alter then Chagrin Falls. In fact, they have a lot to be proud of, overcoming 29 talented public school programs and 2 other catholic schools to go all the way to the top and beating Ironton after losing to them during the regular season. Using skank's victim mentality to tell Hartley or Watterson to be less-proud is a real reach!

Bigdogg;590346 wrote:Nope not at all. Do you deny that private schools do not have to take and keep every student that walks in the door? Do you deny that public schools have parents that could care less if their child went to school? We are talking about advantages and disadvantage as it pertains to DSJ's football program as compared to other D-6 public schools football teams. Do a little research regarding social-economic status and parental participation as it pertains to successful schools and students.

Having everybody stand up that attended DSJ since the 6th grade is an insult to everyone's intelligence and misses the point completely. Most people who are familiar with your school know it's not like the urban schools who kids go where they know they can win.

But DSJ keeps getting held up by the whiners on here as a prime example by folks here of what is wrong. (And I suspect it would be broadly supported by the folks who see their success over the years as something to aspire to as a prime example of what is right, when it is right.)

NNN;589763 wrote:So what? I've seen teams win games by double digits despite being outgained by close to 400 yards and while scoring just one offensive touchdown. It's football, weird stuff happens.

Or are you suggesting some type of magical advantage for Watterson? Tell you what. There's five schools in the CCL. I want a complete list of the kids on those five schools who did not come through the feeder system.

I was responding to the original post several up from mine where Alma suggested that great teams don't turn the ball over.

As far as that list....I want one too.

queencitybuckeye;589805 wrote:Get in line. I've been waiting for two days for a single name of a kid on the DSJ team who didn't grow up in Delphos. Amazing what loudmouths a handful of people are here until you ask them to deal in actual facts, then they go all Hellen Keller on you.

I'm an admitted DI guy, honestly, I could give a crap less about anything lower. I have given lists of the areas that the Ignatius kids are from.

Tiernan;589898 wrote:They could probably remain with 6 smartass...4 Public and 2 Parochial.

or dumb

Alma_Parker;589913 wrote:Careful, NNN and sirclovis, when you ask these guys for facts they start calling you names from TV shows or movies from a generation or two back and/or start bragging about how, unlike you, they run their own Amway franchises (or something like that, I've had a hard time following, maybe because I'm still a bit flummoxed by their ability to derive deep insight into the other posters' socioeconomic situation merely by oberving their posts when they cannot find a single St. John's player who isn't 'clean' despite having the data right in front of them). You know how you can't take peanuts into an elementary school anymore due to the risk of a severe allergy? This thread is a little like that except with facts; if you bring facts they get a real allergy. So brace yourself for a salvo of scathing epithets. My prediction is they'll claim you think you are both a. the smartest person in the world and b. just like Maynard Krebs. Or maybe call you an 'admitted Catholic' (even if you are trying to support a public school). It gets a little confusing.

Surprisingly enough, it's the "better people" who have been throwing around the names.

Alma_Parker;589919 wrote:Worked for "Hoosiers"! Wouldn't work for Be Nice or skank. They need to have their squads made champions without all the fuss of playing the games. How about a poll where only they are electors? That could fix things.

Nope, just want things fair....See, I can do this too:

The parochial school supporters don't want seperate playoffs because they will have to face schools with....THE SAME ADVANTAGES AS THEM....100% of the time.

Alma_Parker;589933 wrote:Brilliant. And whoever skank supports can have their own one-team division. Meanwhile if they wish, Kenton and Ironton and Cllinton-Massie and Orrville and Chagrin Falls and the 24 other public playoff qualifiers in D-IV who aren't afraid to play Hartley and Alter and Elyria Catholic (the only 3 privates in the 32 D-IV qualifiers) can stay 'as-is.' Like fish said, juice boxes for everyone (at least everyone who is now reliant on those juice boxes).

Ok, the repeated juice box comments are making me wonder if you guys all hang out at the same teen club on the weekends.

FYI, Massillon hasn't dodged ANYONE, in the last decade they have played, Ignatius, St. Edward, Chaminade Julienne, Benedictine, Elder, Moeller, Ursuline, Has YOUR school appeared on our schedule?

Al Bundy;590235 wrote:Private schools admit many students who are not athletes.

But the scholarships are reserved for the athletes....Right?

Al Bundy;590342 wrote:We could just go to 700 divisions. It is pretty clear that you grew up in a world where everyone was just given trophies instead of having to earn them. Enjoy your juice box.

How many tines are you going to suggest 700 divisions? It wasn't funny the first 20 times, and I doubt it ever gets funny.

Make mine strawberry blend.

sirclovis;590076 wrote:"Wait, I must have missed something. Why is it harder to prove that a private school recruits (you know, because every single one does it right?) then a public school? If anything, according to your logic, because tons and tons of private schools recruit, wouldn't it be easy to have at least half a dozen private schools caught with evidence each year?"

^^^^^ exact same comment I posted on another thread to a similar statement of yours

For the basic fact that private schools are allowed to and they do recruit...I dont have the law book in front of me....You guys can cover it up so easily .and then alot of the time depending on the school they pay nothing to go ...public school students transfer all the time for all kinds of reasons but at my school everytime one of them is a good football player all the false BS comes up and it hardly ever happens .......you guys and your smoke and mirrors ..did you all take political science class at your school ...You guys know how to lie and hide the truth ..You know how to cloud things up ..You know how to decieve people and it works .....When there is a legal issue with a public school it is always brought to light atleast it seems so ..your schools have the cloak of being a private school ......I know alot of your people are bitter everytime your school taxes rise ..have heard that one too ...Even though in my town most of the private school people vote down our levies everytime they still enjoy the facilities that they help pay for ....Its a long list of animosities between us .... I want a fair football playoff system ..particularly for the small schools

skank;590379 wrote:I was responding to the original post several up from mine where Alma suggested that great teams don't turn the ball over.

As far as that list....I want one too.

I guess if you can't address anything which g refutes your (conspiracy) theory directly you make any jab you can and hope somehow that scores a point, even if it has nothing to do with your main (presumed). Nobody said great teams "don't turn the ball over." I was making the point that instead of focusing on whining and developing theories on how they got screwed, Ironton would be working on how to fumble less, like any great program would. I'm trying to get you to imagine a world in which you have control of your own destiny and aren't a victim of others' actions. This is proving very difficult as it seems to be so far foreign. You don't really believe that they are any teams who never turn the ball over, do you? Or taken the other way, wouldn't you agree that great programs learn to hang on to the ball, generally speaking? At some level it makes no sense to ask you direct questions, because if they can't be answered in a fashion which somehow includes the notion that the privates have an advantage, you just change the subject.

skank;590387 wrote:Surprisingly enough, it's the "better people" who have been throwing around the names.

Look, I don't know if "Be Nice" is one of your better people or not, didn't even know there was such a list. All I know is that rather than responding to any facts he started calling me "Oz" and "God of Football" and "Don Knotts" (I think he meant moreso the Barney Fife character, but who really can know?). Asking you why you think "Be Nice" is one of the better people or what that has to do with football is probably a lost cause.

So let's play a simple game, using the division I know best: Was D-IV unfair this year because only 29 of the 32 playoff qualifiers were public schools? (So far you avoid any questioning (like all the great stuff from sherm) which contradicts your grand theory of unfairness.)

skank;590392 wrote:Nope, just want things fair....See, I can do this too:

The parochial school supporters don't want seperate playoffs because they will have to face schools with....THE SAME ADVANTAGES AS THEM....100% of the time.

Long ago some of the bright folks on this thread established that lots of different advantages are present in lots of different schools and that it wasn't north versus south or urban versus rural or private versus public or large versus small or any one axis along which these many different advantages were distributed. The only way to assure 'same exact advantage' would be to have 700 one-team divisions, which would also mean that your own school (whichever that might be, but from all this it apparently has had a tough time lately) could be in its own division-of-one and, thus, be its own "state champion*" But so many others would be unhappy, like Kenton and Orrville and Versailles and Ironton and Steubenville, because they actually want to play the games. You are so convinced that on this one dimension (catholicness) lies the answer, and the answer is that 'no public school has a chance' that you don't see the forest, or really more than one tree.

Alma_Parker;590431 wrote:I guess if you can't address anything which g refutes your (conspiracy) theory directly you make any jab you can and hope somehow that scores a point, even if it has nothing to do with your main (presumed). Nobody said great teams "don't turn the ball over." I was making the point that instead of focusing on whining and developing theories on how they got screwed, Ironton would be working on how to fumble less, like any great program would. I'm trying to get you to imagine a world in which you have control of your own destiny and aren't a victim of others' actions. This is proving very difficult as it seems to be so far foreign. You don't really believe that they are any teams who never turn the ball over, do you? Or taken the other way, wouldn't you agree that great programs learn to hang on to the ball, generally speaking? At some level it makes no sense to ask you direct questions, because if they can't be answered in a fashion which somehow includes the notion that the privates have an advantage, you just change the subject.

Do YOU even believe the crap you post? You and your "Parochial pals", have tried to paint "us" as wanna be victims, as whiners, as knuckleheads, dumbasses, smartasses, morons, idiots, juice box drinkers and the such, when all we want is FAIR PLAY. No more, no less.

Bigdogg;590240 wrote:Sure can. I know that Van Wert has more open enrollment students that transfer out then in. Every open enrollment school has both students that transfer in and out. I know that less then 2% are open enrollment at Van Wert. That is like comparing apples to oranges. Fact is that DSJ creams from the top of the total student population out of 4 districts. 100% of their kids are from somebody else school district. That is a big advantage even if the majority are from the Jefferson district. You don't have dead wood walking the hall and boosting your numbers up to D-V or D-4. Attendance zones and multipliers would be a good step to even the playing field for all open enrollment schools both public and private.

Yes, 100% of our students are from someone else's district because we don't have a state mandated school district. Do you assume that these public school districts own these students and we're stealing them? The kids at DSJ who live in the Delphos school district don't belong to Jefferson. Many are from families who have never had one family member attend Jefferson. And how do we "cream" the top of other student populations? Do we force them to attend DSJ? And obviously the 2% of students Van Wert steals from other districts are the cream of the crop. Right?

skank;590400 wrote:But the scholarships are reserved for the athletes....Right?

LOL....yeah, that's it. :rolleyes:

Why don't the public schools do the same as the private schools do? Why don't they go state-wide open enrollment and market their programs? That doesn't mean go after individuals but go to your middle school programs and your junior high programs and get involved and make sure the kids know your name and you know theirs. Make them want to come to your school. Skank, there MIGHT be private schools that give scholarship money illegally (please don't group every one of them into this category), but how in the world could the school be run if everyone had a scholarship? I think it would be much easier to make an open enrollment public school great because most of the time they have better facilities and it doesn't cost to go there. There's gotta be more effort. Why is it ok for a team like Chagrin Falls to make the finals 2 years in a row? They must have recruited because they graduated 22 seniors and had to replace 18 starters. They also had 3 or 4 starters get hurt during the season. It's because they have a GREAT program and do things the right way. And don't tell me it's because Bishop Hartley recruits. They've made the playoffs 8, 9, 10 times? in the last 50 years and have won 1 other state title (1986).
Does anyone ever think that economic status might play a role in this? I'd think must private attendees parents have a decent income. This isn't true for every case but I think you'd see that a larger majority of the private school kids come from a better grounded family. Is there very grounded families in public schools? Absolutely, but we there is less to deal with behavioral wise in a private school then a public school. Which is the same on the football field. There is less "distractions" in a private football program than a public program. I think this plays a far more significant role than people may think. I understand your frustration with the idea that private schools can grab from anywhere. But it's a lot harder than it sounds.

skank;590446 wrote:Do YOU even believe the crap you post? You and your "Parochial pals", have tried to paint "us" as wanna be victims, as whiners, as knuckleheads, dumbasses, smartasses, morons, idiots, juice box drinkers and the such, when all we want is FAIR PLAY. No more, no less.

You want an easier path to a title. After 40 friggin' years, I suppose it's understandable.

The poll results don't make sense... Private schools make up 9% of the high schools yet more people are voting no...................