Thinthickbigred;587771 wrote:It aint stupid in several states and West Virginia was talking about it last year..

Wasn't the separate playoff issue voted on once before? It failed and Reno was one who voted no along with enough public votes to defeat that idea.
Also, there is an idea being studied by the state Athletic Board to create a Super Division 1 based on the idea that enrollments in the larger schools span a much larger number between lower and higher than in the lower divisions. This was mentioned at one of the playoff games by a state official. This is being studied at the present and may be decided in the near future.

Wow I leave for a couple days and I am three pages behind. Is it worth reading through?

Alma_Parker;589947 wrote:So you mean like on debate or science fair? So maybe we could limit how many National Merit Scholars you allow at Shaker Heights or Cincy Xavier and force them to only pick a couple so that Massillon or whoever would have an equal number? (Trying to understand what "beyond... sports" means. Seems like the same logic to socialize and assure equal outcomes, but don't you think that this mentality will eventually weaken Ohio? Would you really want to spread out the "winners," even beyond football? Even if some folks on here have a hard time seeing it for football (hey, it's a passion-filled topic), you must see what happens if you roll forward the thinking and mandate that southern Ohio schools have an equal number of Lacrosse and Hockey "winners" and state science fair trohpies be handed out equally to all schools that it will kill a lot of talented kids' motivation...

I was thinking more about trying to reduce the number of kids "taking up space".

queencitybuckeye;589921 wrote:Have open divisions for competitors, and closed divisions for pantywaists who want trophies in spite of not being the best. Each school chooses and the number of divisions of each are set accordingly.

Smoke and mirrors.....I know my team isnt going anywhere,but I really do feel bad for the small towns that do have to play teams like Ursulin and DSJ....When you have a smaller populated school that goes and invites kids from a bigger district to play for them and they field a team that is easily 2 classes better than your average small school ..that is a problem for the smaller schools....You guys have the same argument and it does not fly ...There also is almost no frigging way to proove illegalities against a private school but it is far easier to proove an illegal action has tyaken place against a public school.....The open enrollment thing just doesnt fly either ..Its disproportionate..No normal d-3 school has an offensive line that averages 260 or better every year ..its crazy..smoke and mirrors is all you guys throw up ..You confuse people who are not as in tune with the reality of things .and that is a whole lot of people ...

All you seem to do is make allegations you can't prove. All hat, no cattle.

Thinthickbigred;590052 wrote:..No normal d-3 school has an offensive line that averages 260 or better every year ..its crazy.. ...

Try a D5 school with an O-line that was bigger than Mount Unions, only 20 lbs smaller on average than OSU, and only 30 lbs smaller on average than the Browns.

Thinthickbigred

Your generalities like "you guys" means your statements are intended for me since I am not in support of separate playoffs and therefore your statement contains inaccuracies.

I don't provide an argument I answered the question that was asked. I think it would be a mistake to separate the playoffs. In fact I would like to combine them..all divisions.

I have and am providing no smoke and mirrors of any kind.

The reality of things is that the goal of HS extracurricular activities is not to provide opportunities for kids to play in State Championships. Some people will abuse the opportunity of HS sports because they think it's the be-all end-all and because of that cries of unfairness emerge.

At the end of the day Ohio HS football works. It gives kids the opportunity to learn life lesson in the context of competition that they otherwise would not be exposed to in the classroom.

Don't separate playoffs. Combine them.

...There also is almost no frigging way to proove illegalities against a private school but it is far easier to proove an illegal action has tyaken place against a public school........

"Wait, I must have missed something. Why is it harder to prove that a private school recruits (you know, because every single one does it right?) then a public school? If anything, according to your logic, because tons and tons of private schools recruit, wouldn't it be easy to have at least half a dozen private schools caught with evidence each year?"

^^^^^ exact same comment I posted on another thread to a similar statement of yours

queencitybuckeye;589939 wrote:Perhaps we would be better served attemping to level the field by attempting to fix this issue. It might even be a better approach beyond its effect on sports.

I grew up in Van Wert and could give you a long list of my neighbors who kids all attended attended DSJ. It is pointless to do so, as it is perfectly legal for them to do so. If you really want to know, just go to the school office and ask for a breakdown of kids from the other school districts beside Jefferson.

How would you suggest you fix that issue? Most of those kids are ineligible to participate in extracurricular activities, or have no interest in even attending school let alone playing sports. DSJ participation rate is what like 99%? Public schools are lucky to get 70% Some I bet are below 50% DSJ never has to worry about this and if they had the extra kids walking around and just taking up space, they would be bumped up at least one division.

I see two points here, one valid and one I believe to be off base.

Bigdogg;589936 wrote:What you don't have is kids walking around your halls taking up space and still counting for OHSAA classification purposes like every public school in Ohio has. That is a tremendous advantage.

The perceived problem is dead weight on public school districts. A larger percentage of the private school kids actually care about what they do with their life and strive. Not sure how you discount the public school kids, maybe don’t count those on IEPs? Maybe count them as 3/5 of a person?

Bigdogg;589936 wrote:Growing up in the city of Delphos and attending DSJ are two separate issues. Are you saying that you have zero kids that reside in any other school district then Delphos Jefferson, which is the public school district in which St. Johns is located?

I’d bet just like our local small town catholic school, DSJ high school is made up of kids who went to the same local catholic elementary school, second and third generations that would be going to that school due to families priorities since birth.

The bottom line...with no smoke or mirrors...is this. Every parent has a choice. They can send their child wherever they want to. In the Youngstown area, some parents feel that they are giving their child the best opportunity by sending them to Mooney or Ursuline. Whether they live in Canfield, Boardman, Youngstown, Liberty, etc....they have the right to send their child anywhere they want. There is nothing illegal or shady about it. Is it advantageous to be a perennial football power, and having that program attract families that want to give their son the best shot? You bet your ass it is.

But don't act like the private schools are the only ones that have this "advantage." In Steubenville, parents get to choose to send their kid to Steubenville or SCC. Most feel that they want their son to play for a coach like Reno, in an atmosphere like what Harding Stadium offers on a Friday night...so they choose to send their kid to Steubenville. Does that mean that it's unfair to SCC? Absolutely not. That is the parents right.

So it's unfair for parents to choose to send their kid to Mooney or Ursuline because of the population? Well then what about Winton Woods in Cincinnati? They can get students from Greenhills, Forest Park, and Northern Springfield Township. Yet, they are only division 2. Should they have to move up because they can get students from all those areas? No...because the enrollment is what it is.

It goes both ways. In areas where the private schools do well, families want their kids to go there. In areas where public schools do well, families want their kids to go there.

I'll suggest this. Private schools get a multiplier. But if there's kids in a public high school that attended a private grade school (which happens quite a bit in the Youngstown area) then they have to be counted in a multiplier as well. After all...we want everything to be fair, right?

Thinthickbigred;563843 wrote:Everybody knows that no public school has a chance in the lower divisions against Ursulin and Delphose St Johns and the private schools dominate the upper classes most of the time as well ..

Fellow MAC and Div VI Marion Local lost to DSJ 17-13 when DSJ scored with 1:03 to go. It's the MAC schools you don't have much of a chance against. Every other Div VI school DSJ played was way better than Shadyside.

Bigdogg;590103 wrote:I grew up in Van Wert and could give you a long list of my neighbors who kids all attended attended DSJ. It is pointless to do so, as it is perfectly legal for them to do so. If you really want to know, just go to the school office and ask for a breakdown of kids from the other school districts beside Jefferson.

Long list? We get the occasional student from St. Marys Catholic grade school in Van Wert but a list of those kids would certainly not be long. Can we also ask for a breakdown of out of district kids for Jefferson and Van Wert? Van Wert is statewide open enrollment meaning they can pick and choose their student athletes from anywhere in Ohio. Can we get a long list of those?

I'm all for parental choice Sherm...and if a private school offers better educational opportunities both academic and athletic by all means take adavantage of it if you can afford to. But I'm beginning to wonder whether the perennial Catholic powerhouses (ex..Ursuline, Mooney, DeSales, Xavier, Watterson...et al) really feel like Champions after defeating a number of public schools that are clearly not competitively in their class. I would think these kids, coaches and fan bases would welcome the opportunity to match skill & strategy with teams of like ability. Maybe I'm way off base here and they are happy to pummel the publics throughout the play-offs.

If the OHSAA offered private schools the option to "play up" Tiernan...I think you'd be surprised at the number of schools in D2-6 that would decide that it would be a great idea to do that. I have no problem with this option.

Where I have a problem, is the people who want to either completely remove the private schools from the playoffs all together, or throw a blanket on all private schools and force all of the small ones to move up...including the ones that are never competitive year in and year out. Why should the private schools that never come close to the playoffs have to play up a division because Ursuline is really good in D5?

That's where I have a problem with the large crux of the opposite argument. People argue that it's not fair to have these private schools in the lower divisions...when their whole argument is based on 4-5 teams. They want to make it "fair," but in doing so don't have a problem screwing over the private schools that don't win anything.

And as Delphosfan pointed out (as I have done numerous times)...moving the private schools out of the lower divisions will do nothing but open the door for the MAC schools to win just about every championship. Will these people who complain about fair play be OK with St. Henry, Versailles, Coldwater, and Maria Stein Marion Local winning all of the championships?

I haven't been reading this thread at all, but after this weekend it kind of puts me on the bandwagon of wanting private school divisions....maybe one for the teams that fit into the D1-3 range and one for the D4-6 range.

NWIndianNation01;590170 wrote:I haven't been reading this thread at all, but after this weekend it kind of puts me on the bandwagon of wanting private school divisions....maybe one for the teams that fit into the D1-3 range and one for the D4-6 range.

Good call...base your opinion off of one weekend, and not on all the stats and figures presented in this thread.

sherm03;590153 wrote:.... Will these people who complain about fair play be OK with St. Henry, Versailles, Coldwater, and Maria Stein Marion Local winning all of the championships?

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!! Why because they share the exact same guidelines as the other public schools.

tsst_fballfan;590200 wrote:ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!! Why because they share the exact same guidelines as the other public schools.

The only OHSAA rule that is different favors the public schools. A student may transfer back to his/her home public district without sitting out a year.

Al Bundy;590212 wrote:The only OHSAA rule that is different favors the public schools. A student may transfer back to his/her home public district without sitting out a year.

Sure if you choose to ignore state law regarding admittance for public schools.

tsst_fballfan;590220 wrote:Sure if you choose to ignore state law regarding admittance for public schools.

Private schools admit many students who are not athletes.

Delphosfan;590121 wrote:Fellow MAC and Div VI Marion Local lost to DSJ 17-13 when DSJ scored with 1:03 to go. It's the MAC schools you don't have much of a chance against. Every other Div VI school DSJ played was way better than Shadyside.



Long list? We get the occasional student from St. Marys Catholic grade school in Van Wert but a list of those kids would certainly not be long. Can we also ask for a breakdown of out of district kids for Jefferson and Van Wert? Van Wert is statewide open enrollment meaning they can pick and choose their student athletes from anywhere in Ohio. Can we get a long list of those?

Sure can. I know that Van Wert has more open enrollment students that transfer out then in. Every open enrollment school has both students that transfer in and out. I know that less then 2% are open enrollment at Van Wert. That is like comparing apples to oranges. Fact is that DSJ creams from the top of the total student population out of 4 districts. 100% of their kids are from somebody else school district. That is a big advantage even if the majority are from the Jefferson district. You don't have dead wood walking the hall and boosting your numbers up to D-V or D-4. Attendance zones and multipliers would be a good step to even the playing field for all open enrollment schools both public and private.

Al Bundy;590235 wrote:Private schools admit many students who are not athletes.

That in what way equates to a state law requiring a public school to accept ALL students in their assigned district?

tsst_fballfan;590247 wrote:That in what way equates to a state law requiring a public school to accept ALL students in their assigned district?

You are crying about public schools having to count students at their schools who are not athletes towards their numbers to determine what division they are in. I am just pointing out that private schools also have students who are not athletes.

Al Bundy;590252 wrote:You are crying

[sarcasm]Yes boo hoo. Thanks for bringing your A-game to the debate with the typical crying comment.

Al Bundy;590252 wrote: about public schools having to count students at their schools who are not athletes towards their numbers to determine what division they are in. I am just pointing out that private schools also have students who are not athletes.

And I was pointing out that public schools don't have a choice. aka different guidelines.

tsst_fballfan;590247 wrote:That in what way equates to a state law requiring a public school to accept ALL students in their assigned district?

How about we only count students who get government funding in the enrollment figures?