Walt;588058 wrote:Indiana high school football has five divisions. Their large school division is dominated by huge public schools with 3000-4000 students. The other four divisions are dominated by parochial schools... usually the same four or five schools in each division. I heard there is a rule change being considered that if a team wins two consecutive titles they have to move up one division the next year. Not sure if that solves the concerns some of you have, but I just thought this was relevant given the discussion on this thread.

This could work for sure and is one of the non-destructive and non-discriminatory ideas. Doesn't help much with D-I but would sure be interesting everywhere else. Essentially it is the same concept as the Brits use for their Premier Football lead (and which is shared by many other similar leagues). They call it 'promotion' and 'relegation.' Basically after a certain level of success or certain place-finish, teams move either up or down a category, while the bulk of the league stays as is. This way if Steubenville or Orrville or Mooney or Newark Catholic consistently played at a high level, they would be challenged to 'play up' and meanwhile the schools who consistently lag (private and public) would be allowed to build a little momentum by 'playing down' in terms of their division. Now the anti-private brigade here won't like it because it lacks that anti- element that seems to fuel them, but is instead fair. I have no clue whether they OHSAA has considered such a thing, but a lot of the folks on here seem quite knowledgeable and might know.

As for how it works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation

Thoughtful for sure and might work. Still doesn't have that strong effect of snuffing out success for the Catholics that "Be Nice" and skank seem to strive for, but this seems like constructive thinking. Interesting idea to hive off those very-biggest and very-smallest, too, as that's been pointed out as another need for refinement by a lot of folks.

I like that Indiana system a lot. I think that's the best idea that's been brought up yet.

Walt;588058 wrote:Indiana high school football has five divisions. Their large school division is dominated by huge public schools with 3000-4000 students. The other four divisions are dominated by parochial schools... usually the same four or five schools in each division. I heard there is a rule change being considered that if a team wins two consecutive titles they have to move up one division the next year. Not sure if that solves the concerns some of you have, but I just thought this was relevant given the discussion on this thread.

That would be a good step ..I put that idea up already didnt know Indiana was thinking about it .

Alma_Parker;588171 wrote:This could work for sure and is one of the non-destructive and non-discriminatory ideas. Doesn't help much with D-I but would sure be interesting everywhere else. Essentially it is the same concept as the Brits use for their Premier Football lead (and which is shared by many other similar leagues). They call it 'promotion' and 'relegation.' Basically after a certain level of success or certain place-finish, teams move either up or down a category, while the bulk of the league stays as is. This way if Steubenville or Orrville or Mooney or Newark Catholic consistently played at a high level, they would be challenged to 'play up' and meanwhile the schools who consistently lag (private and public) would be allowed to build a little momentum by 'playing down' in terms of their division. Now the anti-private brigade here won't like it because it lacks that anti- element that seems to fuel them, but is instead fair. I have no clue whether they OHSAA has considered such a thing, but a lot of the folks on here seem quite knowledgeable and might know.

I've seen it in other sports. Personally, I played in a men's softball league years ago that had two 10 team divisions. The top five teams from the lower division had to move up the next year, and the bottom five had to move down.

I know Ohio High School Football is much bigger and complicated than beer league softball..... but that's the concept. Have some rule that if a team makes X number of consecutive playoff appearances they have to move up and if they go X amount of years without a playoff appearance they would move down a division.... with the stipulation that a team could never move than one division above or below the division they should be assigned to based upon the number of students.

Thinthickbigred;588282 wrote:That would be a good step ..I put that idea up already didnt know Indiana was thinking about it .

Don't know how serious they are. I just read it on an Indiana high school football message board.

I'm a public school guy. I attended public school and my kids currently attend public schools. However, I'm not in favor of split divisions (public vs. private). I think there are steps that can be taken to level the playing field a bit. Here's another idea..... this one is my own.

Looking Ohio and other neighboring states, it seems the issue of public vs. private is different in the smaller divisions. At least in my biased opinion, it's harder for a D4, D5, or D6 public school team from a small town to compete with a D4, D5, or D6 private school team located in a larger town.

The reason we have divisions is that the assumption is more kids in a school = more athletes. In the public vs. public that's true. But for a small town public vs. small school in a large town that is not true. The small private school in a large town has a greater population from which to draw students, so it stands to reason they have access to more athletes.

For example, Coldwater has a population of about 4,000 to 4,500. Youngstown has 75,000-80,000 people. I know that there are rules regarding attendance zones for parochial schools. Ursuline can't draw from all 80,000..... but they can draw from a lot more people than Coldwater can and I would argue they have access to more athletes than Coldwater. When I played, I lived in a town of 6,000 and one of our biggest rivals was a parochial school (same division) in a town of 50,000.

So why not determine division assignment based upon the population of the of the school district or area from which a school draws. Or at least factor that into the determination. Count enrollment and then have a "population" multiplier... or something like that.

coyotes22;587763 wrote:Its the Democratic thinking. "Redistribution of wealth" idea. Make it "fair" for everyone.

Im talking about the separate playoff idea.

Right. Guaranteed-outcome thinking. Ironton football draws the best (football) kids out of Ironton St. Joe and back to Ironton H.S. Kids and parents choose where to play. Neither choice is 'unfair' or 'wrong.' Some of the folks here want a division where all teams less-good than they are are included and all teams more successful are excluded to another division. They probably want a debate champion on every block and a science fair champ in every school, too.

I leave you guys for one day and you go all crazy about playing paycheck poker or something.

Boiled down, this thread is about some folks not understanding the differences at the most competitive levels of any endeavor. Football is certainly one of them. Saw Wayne play St. Ed's last evening. Wayne had more talent than St. Ed's. That looked pretty obvious to me. But St. Ed's is a family. Wayne is almost a family, but not quite. In my opinion, those two great teams battled to the end, but in the end St. Ed's reached down and brought up a little more heart. Oh, and had help from the official on the second last TD, when the QB's knee was pretty clearly on the ground before he slung the ball across the plane. But he would have scored the next play, because he was not going to allow anything to stop him.

Today I saw "Remember the Titans" again.

Heart is where it's at.

Of course, I recognize no DVI team could compete with Delphos SJ this year. Those corn-fed farm boys were a very unusual collection. Huge and quick enough to tag you. Wow! But it's really not usually about having more talent. Look at Trotwood-Madison or Glenville. With all that talent, you'd expect no one to come close. But Davidson, Colerain and a lot of privates have what it takes - a program where the hatred of losing is much higher than the thrill of winning.

I know you won't believe me, and you'll still talk about recruiting talent, and all that. Actually, I wish my Alter Knights would have been in D3 this year. Much easier pickings than Kenton and Hartley, IMO. Not to say they would win, but the trail would have been easier. I wish Alter would have been in a higher division in some past years, also. Like the year CJ won a higher division state title, and Alter was CJ's only loss that year. So from a strictly selfish standpoint, it would be a good thing in some years. But how would boosting smaller privates up help anyone? You could have bumped Delphos SJ up two or even three divisions and they would have won. They could have competed in D1, although they probably wouldn't beat Wayne or St. Ed's. So you'd still be complaining.

One other fact: MAC teams are mostly Catholic kids. The rest of them are Lutherans. Check it out. Must be the prayers.

aged jock;588483 wrote:I leave you guys for one day and you go all crazy about playing paycheck poker or something.

Boiled down, this thread is about some folks not understanding the differences at the most competitive levels of any endeavor. Football is certainly one of them. Saw Wayne play St. Ed's last evening. Wayne had more talent than St. Ed's. That looked pretty obvious to me. But St. Ed's is a family. Wayne is almost a family, but not quite. In my opinion, those two great teams battled to the end, but in the end St. Ed's reached down and brought up a little more heart. Oh, and had help from the official on the second last TD, when the QB's knee was pretty clearly on the ground before he slung the ball across the plane. But he would have scored the next play, because he was not going to allow anything to stop him.

Today I saw "Remember the Titans" again.

Heart is where it's at.

Of course, I recognize no DVI team could compete with Delphos SJ this year. Those corn-fed farm boys were a very unusual collection. Huge and quick enough to tag you. Wow! But it's really not usually about having more talent. Look at Trotwood-Madison or Glenville. With all that talent, you'd expect no one to come close. But Davidson, Colerain and a lot of privates have what it takes - a program where the hatred of losing is much higher than the thrill of winning.

I know you won't believe me, and you'll still talk about recruiting talent, and all that. Actually, I wish my Alter Knights would have been in D3 this year. Much easier pickings than Kenton and Hartley, IMO. Not to say they would win, but the trail would have been easier. I wish Alter would have been in a higher division in some past years, also. Like the year CJ won a higher division state title, and Alter was CJ's only loss that year. So from a strictly selfish standpoint, it would be a good thing in some years. But how would boosting smaller privates up help anyone? You could have bumped Delphos SJ up two or even three divisions and they would have won. They could have competed in D1, although they probably wouldn't beat Wayne or St. Ed's. So you'd still be complaining.

One other fact: MAC teams are mostly Catholic kids. The rest of them are Lutherans. Check it out. Must be the prayers.

Wayne, just like every other school, went through offseason lifting and conditioning sessions. they then had their, what, 10 days allowed to every school in Ohio, then, they went into their 2 a days, again, just like every other school in Ohio. They then played 40 regular season quarters of football. Next, 16 quarters of playoff football, to qualify to play a final 4 quarters for the State Championship. Now....you watched 4 quarters of football, out of offseason conditioning, 2 a days, regular season and finally playoff, and YOU determine that Wayne is, "almost a family, but not quite"? You must be a football genius.

aged jock;588483 wrote:I leave you guys for one day and you go all crazy about playing paycheck poker or something.

Boiled down, this thread is about some folks not understanding the differences at the most competitive levels of any endeavor. Football is certainly one of them. Saw Wayne play St. Ed's last evening. Wayne had more talent than St. Ed's. That looked pretty obvious to me. But St. Ed's is a family. Wayne is almost a family, but not quite. In my opinion, those two great teams battled to the end, but in the end St. Ed's reached down and brought up a little more heart. Oh, and had help from the official on the second last TD, when the QB's knee was pretty clearly on the ground before he slung the ball across the plane. But he would have scored the next play, because he was not going to allow anything to stop him.

Today I saw "Remember the Titans" again.

Heart is where it's at.

Of course, I recognize no DVI team could compete with Delphos SJ this year. Those corn-fed farm boys were a very unusual collection. Huge and quick enough to tag you. Wow! But it's really not usually about having more talent. Look at Trotwood-Madison or Glenville. With all that talent, you'd expect no one to come close. But Davidson, Colerain and a lot of privates have what it takes - a program where the hatred of losing is much higher than the thrill of winning.

I know you won't believe me, and you'll still talk about recruiting talent, and all that. Actually, I wish my Alter Knights would have been in D3 this year. Much easier pickings than Kenton and Hartley, IMO. Not to say they would win, but the trail would have been easier. I wish Alter would have been in a higher division in some past years, also. Like the year CJ won a higher division state title, and Alter was CJ's only loss that year. So from a strictly selfish standpoint, it would be a good thing in some years. But how would boosting smaller privates up help anyone? You could have bumped Delphos SJ up two or even three divisions and they would have won. They could have competed in D1, although they probably wouldn't beat Wayne or St. Ed's. So you'd still be complaining.

One other fact: MAC teams are mostly Catholic kids. The rest of them are Lutherans. Check it out. Must be the prayers.

Agree 100%. It's like Plato's cave for the folks who have never been around a program that builds the kind of interconnectedness and interdependence that the best do; they don't know how some teams (public and private, because there are plenty of both) do it year after year. The idea that there are public programs where the backers aren't paranoid obsessive about the catholics is a foreign idea to this gang. While they spend the winter and spring trying to prove that 29 of the 32 D-IV qualifiers weren't really publics (they hate the data part of this discussion), Kenton and Ironton and Orrville and Alder (and Hartley and Alter) will re-load. As I've said before Ironton fans aren't wondering why Hartley is in D-IV but rather working on not fumbling. They know when they don't turn it over (a key trait shared by the best programs, year-in and year-out) they can beat teams like Hartley (as they did beat Hartley this year and as they've beaten Mooney and St. V-M and others in the past.)

What we have here is a philosophical difference of what helps the team the most and how one spends his or her time. skank and Nice look search for explanation for their victimhood. Others focus on football. Ironton focuses on the 30th playoff qualification for their particular little band of public, poor, and southern boys.

www.irontonfootball.com

And Donald Freud Be Nice Trump seems to have gone back to sleep. No response, ever, on the facts or issues folks like aged jock and sherm contribute to the mix. Just the intermittent ad hominem attack and emotional outlash. Or maybe he's checking his math trying to figure out why almost 10% of the D-IV qualifiers being catholic schools just isn't fair.

Saw Wayne play St. Ed's last evening. Wayne had more talent than St. Ed's. That looked pretty obvious to me. But St. Ed's is a family. Wayne is almost a family, but not quite.

I saw the same game and other than Braxton Miller, who is special, I think St. Eds matched up favorably with Wayne. Why is St. Eds a family and Wayne isn't? Do you know the Wayne kids, their coach, or how their program is run?? Your statement seems like a cliched assumption to me and somewhat demeaning to the players and coaches of Wayne.

I attended catholic schools for 12 years and I do think the private schools in the bigger cities have a great opportunity to recruit.I don't know if any schools recruit, but the opportunity is there.

Prescott...I could be wrong, but I think you're the first admitted Catholic on here that truly understands the recruitment situation myself and others have been talking about.

As I've mentioned in earlier posts my wife is Catholic. I have absolutly nothing against Catholics except for the Catholic coaches and schools that do recruit. Like you said the opportunity is there and has been taken advantage of.

Alma_Parker;588597 wrote:Agree 100%. It's like Plato's cave for the folks who have never been around a program that builds the kind of interconnectedness and interdependence that the best do; they don't know how some teams (public and private, because there are plenty of both) do it year after year. The idea that there are public programs where the backers aren't paranoid obsessive about the catholics is a foreign idea to this gang. While they spend the winter and spring trying to prove that 29 of the 32 D-IV qualifiers weren't really publics (they hate the data part of this discussion), Kenton and Ironton and Orrville and Alder (and Hartley and Alter) will re-load. As I've said before Ironton fans aren't wondering why Hartley is in D-IV but rather working on not fumbling. They know when they don't turn it over (a key trait shared by the best programs, year-in and year-out) they can beat teams like Hartley (as they did beat Hartley this year and as they've beaten Mooney and St. V-M and others in the past.)
What we have here is a philosophical difference of what helps the team the most and how one spends his or her time. skank and Nice look search for explanation for their victimhood. Others focus on football. Ironton focuses on the 30th playoff qualification for their particular little band of public, poor, and southern boys.

www.irontonfootball.com

And Donald Freud Be Nice Trump seems to have gone back to sleep. No response, ever, on the facts or issues folks like aged jock and sherm contribute to the mix. Just the intermittent ad hominem attack and emotional outlash. Or maybe he's checking his math trying to figure out why almost 10% of the D-IV qualifiers being catholic schools just isn't fair.

Or, you could be like Watterson, turn it over, what 6....7 times, IN THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME....and still win.

Prescott;588661 wrote:I saw the same game and other than Braxton Miller, who is special, I think St. Eds matched up favorably with Wayne. Why is St. Eds a family and Wayne isn't? Do you know the Wayne kids, their coach, or how their program is run?? Your statement seems like a cliched assumption to me and somewhat demeaning to the players and coaches of Wayne.

I attended catholic schools for 12 years and I do think the private schools in the bigger cities have a great opportunity to recruit.I don't know if any schools recruit, but the opportunity is there.

No direct knowledge, and maybe some of what I said is assumption about Wayne. I thought Wayne's athleticism with receivers and along the line was very high. But I did witness the St. Ed's QB talking with his teammates and encouraging them to "make this happen" as a group. My point is that there's a more common bond in the Catholic schools generally, and I saw that in St. Ed's. The kids buy into the whole program, not just football. It's all about succeeding in life, and football being a place to start learning success skills, not just football skills. I saw the game on TV and it was shot from the St. Ed's side, so after thinking about it, I definitely didn't get a good view of how the Wayne players reacted. Got me there, Prescott. My apologies to the Wayne players for making assumptions.

aged jock;588483 wrote:I leave you guys for one day and you go all crazy about playing paycheck poker or something.

Boiled down, this thread is about some folks not understanding the differences at the most competitive levels of any endeavor. Football is certainly one of them. Saw Wayne play St. Ed's last evening. Wayne had more talent than St. Ed's. That looked pretty obvious to me. But St. Ed's is a family. Wayne is almost a family, but not quite. In my opinion, those two great teams battled to the end, but in the end St. Ed's reached down and brought up a little more heart. Oh, and had help from the official on the second last TD, when the QB's knee was pretty clearly on the ground before he slung the ball across the plane. But he would have scored the next play, because he was not going to allow anything to stop him.

Today I saw "Remember the Titans" again.

Heart is where it's at.

Of course, I recognize no DVI team could compete with Delphos SJ this year. Those corn-fed farm boys were a very unusual collection. Huge and quick enough to tag you. Wow! But it's really not usually about having more talent. Look at Trotwood-Madison or Glenville. With all that talent, you'd expect no one to come close. But Davidson, Colerain and a lot of privates have what it takes - a program where the hatred of losing is much higher than the thrill of winning.

I know you won't believe me, and you'll still talk about recruiting talent, and all that. Actually, I wish my Alter Knights would have been in D3 this year. Much easier pickings than Kenton and Hartley, IMO. Not to say they would win, but the trail would have been easier. I wish Alter would have been in a higher division in some past years, also. Like the year CJ won a higher division state title, and Alter was CJ's only loss that year. So from a strictly selfish standpoint, it would be a good thing in some years. But how would boosting smaller privates up help anyone? You could have bumped Delphos SJ up two or even three divisions and they would have won. They could have competed in D1, although they probably wouldn't beat Wayne or St. Ed's. So you'd still be complaining.

One other fact: MAC teams are mostly Catholic kids. The rest of them are Lutherans. Check it out. Must be the prayers.

This is the type of elitist talk that kills me ...St Eds is a family HHW is almost a family

Thick

An opinion is like an asshole, everyone has one and most stink. The man is entitled to his opinion and most people don't see that statement as "elitist" at all. You and your buddy Skank better get used to the private schools being in the playoffs because if they throw them out and don't do the same to the open enrollment public schools get ready for those "elite" lawyers that attended those "elite" private schools to file a very winnable law suit.

I hear crap like that all the time.... Yep people say Better coaching ...better kids....better community as in the catholic parish......better better better .....yep we know ...You guys are just blessed and we are poor boys with no direction ...The state need to step in and stop these schools from running everything.....Lets just openly recruit like the old days then huh

Dean Wormer;589121 wrote:Thick

An opinion is like an asshole, everyone has one and most stink. The man is entitled to his opinion and most people don't see that statement as "elitist" at all.

The part that says St Eds obviously played like a family and HHW played almost like a family ...and he decerned this from the stands.......HHW played 14 tough games before that one so my guess is they are like a family as well ....Its the thinking that some people have ,they are condesending ,and they just think that theyre kind is better...

aged jock;588904 wrote:No direct knowledge, and maybe some of what I said is assumption about Wayne. I thought Wayne's athleticism with receivers and along the line was very high. But I did witness the St. Ed's QB talking with his teammates and encouraging them to "make this happen" as a group. My point is that there's a more common bond in the Catholic schools generally, and I saw that in St. Ed's. The kids buy into the whole program, not just football. It's all about succeeding in life, and football being a place to start learning success skills, not just football skills. I saw the game on TV and it was shot from the St. Ed's side, so after thinking about it, I definitely didn't get a good view of how the Wayne players reacted. Got me there, Prescott. My apologies to the Wayne players for making assumptions.

again .."a more common bond in the catholic schools generally" what does that mean on the football teams....You can have rough public chools ..but those same public schools can have TEAMS like the football squad or basketball team that are like families themselves....More condesending attitude

Maybe you see it as elitist, I see it as an observation. We all know that if a team plays 15 games they better have some sense of family. The St. Ed's kids responded when they where pushed to the wall by a very good Wayne team and they did what they had to win. That fact alone tells me that they have faith in one another's abilities to do what needed to be done. Kind of like relying on your brother when you need him. Hence the term family.

skank;588898 wrote:Or, you could be like Watterson, turn it over, what 6....7 times, IN THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME....and still win.

Is this really supposed to be a counter? Gosh, maybe you're right, the Watterson thing isn't an isolated incident where a team survived a fairly lousy turnover condition due to extraordinary defense and there really isn't a negative correlation between turning it over and winning. I might have it wrong but I thought I'd heard that Buchtel was an offensive machine this year, scoring like crazy (although somebody told me they did get to five touchdowns by an average D-I school (something or other Washington, I think). I've never seen anybody so resilient to logic or data. Or even common sense. Now another thread has opened up on here. Looks eerily similar to this one. Somebody opens with some hardcore whining, sherm counters with data, and the whiners are off to the races.

Kind of like relying on your brother when you need him. Hence the term family.

Maybe, if you had seen Wayne defeat the defending state champion Hilliard Davidson Wilcats you would have seen the same kind of support on the Wayne sideline.Any team that gets to s state final has to have a sense of family and a sense trust in the coaches and the teammates.This is not something that is exclusive to the Catholic Schools.

Prescott

If you read the beginning of the post I said that any team that goes through 15 games MUST have some sense of family.

miss alma...not asleep, just enjoying all the bullshit you spew on this site. Some men are intelligent, but others pretend to be. The ones that aren't, including yourself, are the ones that perhaps have no purpose in life except to pine over how things should have been. "Here's my opinion. It is the word for I am never wrong". Well, Mr. Vince Lombardi double talker bullshitter, you have absolutely no one fooled, but yourself. You, my friend, are a fraud hiding behind your little mouse, keyboard and monitor pretending, only in your minds eye to be the great Oz of Ohio HS football. Have you ever watched Andy Griffith? I'm sure you have. Why? Because of your stupidity in many of your rebuttals it leads 4 of us on here to believe your character in life is none other than Don Knotts. You, Mr. Vince Lombardi double talker bullshitter of Ohio HS football, win the award of idiot clown for Ohio HS football. Congratulations, you truly deserve it.