enigmaax;434427 wrote:So the other part is, what did he do for the community? It'd be a much more sound statement if you cited exactly what he did for the community.

Good question.

There's no doubt that LeBron did a lot for Cleveland and the Cavs when he was there, but the way he left has soured that. He not only burnt his bridge to Cleveland, Akron, and the state of Ohio...he doused it in kerosene and torched that bitch. Like I said, the whole retiring the jerseys thing from an organizational standpoint is at that particular team's discretion. Since the fans are who buy tickets, merchandise, etc... their feelings are taken into account here. I think there's a possibility that LeBron's number could be retired but it would be YEARS after his playing career is over. There's just too many harsh feelings to think that it would happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

Ok here's the thing with Z. First of all, you have to realize the Cavs aren't exactly the Celtics or Lakers. They've only been around 40 years and haven't exactly had a history of drafting future hall of famers. Regardless, they retire the numbers of guys who meant a lot to the franchise and fans. Every Cavalier that has their jersey retired right now was 1. very popular with the fans and 2. meant something to the franchise in one way or the other. Z has played in more games than any other player for the Cavs. He was the LONE bright spot during a period of time (98-02) where the Cavs were absolutely horrid. He chose to come back after he was traded. He's just always been very popular in Cleveland and has said nothing but nice things about the city, fans, and franchise. He also holds a few team records and is a 2 time All-Star. Yes, he did leave but that was after 14 years and with not much of a future role on the team. I could see him coming back after he retires and being involved in the front office and I'm sure he'd be welcomed with open arms. As far as his exact work in the community, I'm not his publicist. But what I can tell you is that Z does community work as much as any other NBA player does through the NBA's various programs and because he has been a Cav for longer than anyone else it means he's done more charity work for Cleveland than any other Cav.

The point of this is: No true Cavaliers fans would argue with any of the numbers hanging from the rafters in the Q. None would question Big Z's #11 hanging up there one day. None would oppose LeBron's #23 never making it up there. THAT is all that matters. It doesn't matter what you or dynasty or any other non Cavs fan thinks. This isn't a number being retired in the NBA....just the Cleveland Cavaliers. Their franchise, their fans, their players.

Well said. I'm not opposed to retiring Z's number and I think of his as the ultimate professional. I was just looking for that explanation that didn't necessarily focus on stats and individual production.

I did read that Z said he would like to come back to Cleveland and work in the front office once his playing days are over, so that tells me that he really respects the Cavs franchise.

krazie45;434456 wrote:There's no doubt that LeBron did a lot for Cleveland and the Cavs when he was there, but the way he left has soured that. He not only burnt his bridge to Cleveland, Akron, and the state of Ohio...he doused it in kerosene and torched that bitch. Like I said, the whole retiring the jerseys thing from an organizational standpoint is at that particular team's discretion. Since the fans are who buy tickets, merchandise, etc... their feelings are taken into account here. I think there's a possibility that LeBron's number could be retired but it would be YEARS after his playing career is over. There's just too many harsh feelings to think that it would happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

Ok here's the thing with Z. First of all, you have to realize the Cavs aren't exactly the Celtics or Lakers. They've only been around 40 years and haven't exactly had a history of drafting future hall of famers. Regardless, they retire the numbers of guys who meant a lot to the franchise and fans. Every Cavalier that has their jersey retired right now was 1. very popular with the fans and 2. meant something to the franchise in one way or the other. Z has played in more games than any other player for the Cavs. He was the LONE bright spot during a period of time (98-02) where the Cavs were absolutely horrid. He chose to come back after he was traded. He's just always been very popular in Cleveland and has said nothing but nice things about the city, fans, and franchise. He also holds a few team records and is a 2 time All-Star. Yes, he did leave but that was after 14 years and with not much of a future role on the team. I could see him coming back after he retires and being involved in the front office and I'm sure he'd be welcomed with open arms. As far as his exact work in the community, I'm not his publicist. But what I can tell you is that Z does community work as much as any other NBA player does through the NBA's various programs and because he has been a Cav for longer than anyone else it means he's done more charity work for Cleveland than any other Cav.

The point of this is: No true Cavaliers fans would argue with any of the numbers hanging from the rafters in the Q. None would question Big Z's #11 hanging up there one day. None would oppose LeBron's #23 never making it up there. THAT is all that matters. It doesn't matter what you or dynasty or any other non Cavs fan thinks. This isn't a number being retired in the NBA....just the Cleveland Cavaliers. Their franchise, their fans, their players.

Good points, thanks. Another question. If Cleveland ends up getting a franchise guy, wins some titles, all that stuff. And years from now that guy has his jersey retired...I guess, is there a point where that honor really doesn't mean much if you have too many guys included just for basically being nice guys?

Let's say LeBron had stayed and maybe Z left or retired or something. Do you think that people would still be talking about retiring Z's jersey? Or, let's say LeBron had stayed and ten years from now had brought the Cavs 5 titles but Z hadn't been a part of any of those teams. Would Cavs fans ever bring up the idea to retire Z's jersey in all those years?

I get what you are saying about the short timeframe of the franchise and certainly understand it is YOUR team. Again, not trying to argue. But if you reduce the honor to kind of, "these were the best we could find", doesn't that eventually diminish the honor if there's ever someone that could be universally recognized?

enigmaax;434503 wrote:Good points, thanks. Another question. If Cleveland ends up getting a franchise guy, wins some titles, all that stuff. And years from now that guy has his jersey retired...I guess, is there a point where that honor really doesn't mean much if you have too many guys included just for basically being nice guys?

Let's say LeBron had stayed and maybe Z left or retired or something. Do you think that people would still be talking about retiring Z's jersey? Or, let's say LeBron had stayed and ten years from now had brought the Cavs 5 titles but Z hadn't been a part of any of those teams. Would Cavs fans ever bring up the idea to retire Z's jersey in all those years?

I get what you are saying about the short timeframe of the franchise and certainly understand it is YOUR team. Again, not trying to argue. But if you reduce the honor to kind of, "these were the best we could find", doesn't that eventually diminish the honor if there's ever someone that could be universally recognized?

Eh....I can see where you're coming from but it's not like Z is an absolute bum. I mean he is a 2 time all star (maybe could've had more had he not hurt his foot in his prime) and was at one time one of the better centers in the league. I think it's more of a show of respect to Z for the person he is and how he played for the Cavs. Just a guy that went out every night and gave it his all. I just think it's something about his personality that he just kind of connected with the fans.

Also, LeBron would've undoubtedly had his number retired had he not left the way he did (and a statue outside the Q had he stayed). I mean Z is leaving at the end of his career, LeBron left in the middle of his and on very very bad terms. When you look at it, Shawn Kemp was probably one of the greatest players in Cavs history historically but his number isn't retired. I don't think it's something you can have a formula for. I think it just goes on a case to case basis. Who really sticks out in Cavaliers history. I think Z, having played for Cleveland for so long and having been able to play at a level in which most NBA fans know who he is allows him to be kind of synonymous with the Cavs and I think that's a big reason why his jersey should be retired.

Yeah, that makes sense. Who are the other jerseys that are retired - wait, just to be sure...these are actually "retired", meaning no one can use them again...or just hanging in the arena?

enigmaax;434637 wrote:Yeah, that makes sense. Who are the other jerseys that are retired - wait, just to be sure...these are actually "retired", meaning no one can use them again...or just hanging in the arena?

I believe it means no one can wear them and they are

7-Bingo Smith
22-Larry Nance
25-Mark Price
34-Austin Carr
42-Nate Thurmond
43-Brad Daugherty

The only one I would maybe argue against is Thurmond, but he's from the area and he was a MAJOR presence on the Miracle of Richfield team. I personally think "Hot Rod" Williams and World B. Free could/should also have their numbers retired.

I thought that Ehlo was retired as well...I might be on crack.

wes_mantooth;434739 wrote:I thought that Ehlo was retired as well...I might be on crack.

U have something against crack??

It is for pussies...i do speedballs

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Of course LBJ's number should be retired. The Browns retired Modell's number, didn't they?