SportsAndLady;428776 wrote:lol enigmaax and dynasty should just go fuck each other already...their flirtatious takeover of Lebron/Cleveland threads makes me believe they wanna gape each other

Don't forget Hb31187, I could see a three way there.

gut;429423 wrote:So when you draft a FRANCHISE player and try to build a team around him, 7 years is what you should get? Everyone knows picking that high will take at least a few years to dig out of the whole. As was mentioned, the Bulls weren't very good when Jordan commited to an EIGHT year contract. Lebron went with 3....do you honestly no understand how 3 years limits your opportunity set of potential moves, especially when you get to years 2 and 3 of that deal? Do you think it's at all possible the prospect of Lebron leaving in a year or two affected who CLE was able to sign the last few years? Do you think a rising star would want to be stuck in CLE for several years after Lebron flew the coop?

CLE was on the cusp, probably just a player away, and Lebron's gun to the head approach certainly factored in that, it's undeniable. But the simple fact is, after 7 years - and really more like 3-4 - Lebron took his ball and went home. They were going in the right direction. They cam up short of expectations the last few years, but Lebron threw in the towel. Again, people act like he was playing for the Pirates. This whole "he gave them 7 years and they don't have what it takes" is just a BS excuse.

You make some good points. Here's a question, from the time you were 18 until you were 25, did your goals, tastes, and/or opportunities change? Clearly the guy wasn't feeling Cleveland anymore. You are still stuck on this "he owed Cleveland" something. An entire city, maybe even state, put its livelihood in the hands of an 18 year old several years ago and has expected him to pay off their dreams the whole time. He didn't take his ball and go home, he took his ball and went where the fuck HE wanted to go. Just like what all of the rest of us can do at any time in our lives without having 10 million stupid fuckers acting like we let them down.

enigmaax;429597 wrote:You make some good points. Here's a question, from the time you were 18 until you were 25, did your goals, tastes, and/or opportunities change? Clearly the guy wasn't feeling Cleveland anymore. You are still stuck on this "he owed Cleveland" something. An entire city, maybe even state, put its livelihood in the hands of an 18 year old several years ago and has expected him to pay off their dreams the whole time. He didn't take his ball and go home, he took his ball and went where the fuck HE wanted to go. Just like what all of the rest of us can do at any time in our lives without having 10 million stupid fuckers acting like we let them down.

I think that's a fair point about going where he wanted to go. But the comparison is kind of apples to oranges. If I got paid millions to do what I love, I'd be reluctant to move. I could always go live in MIA, NY or wherever in the offseason. It's not about Lebron owing CLE something - I'm neither a CLE nor Lebron fan. It's my feeling - and forget which analyst said it, but maybe a point about it being "old school" - that when a team drafts a guy to be the franchise guy to build a team around, that comes with a responsibility. Think Sam Bowie. There is risk in drafting a guy and showering millions on him.

Maybe this is a better comparison: Hire me to run a growing company. Pay me $20M a year. Then when the growth stagnates a bit or we hit a hiccup, I bail. That's a shitty thing to do. Most people believe in finishing what they started, but perhaps that is an old-school belief.

gut;429617 wrote:
Maybe this is a better comparison: Hire me to run a growing company. Pay me $20M a year. Then when the growth stagnates a bit or we hit a hiccup, I bail. That's a shitty thing to do. Most people believe in finishing what they started, but perhaps that is an old-school belief.

One problem with this comparison - the company chooses you, you don't choose the company. It is easy to say that money is the difference, but the money is there no matter where you are at. Forget the 20 mil, say that when you graduated college a company picked you and you had no choice but to go there. Then your first opportunity to get out comes and you extend, locking yourself in thinking that certain things are going to happen, you owe them, you're going to get a certain promotion or status. Then it doesn't happen. A couple years later, you get another opportunity to make your own choice and another company is willing to hire you AND offers a life that you desire a little more. It is bullshit if you say that you aren't going to think about your own happiness and well being.

enigmaax;429625 wrote:One problem with this comparison - the company chooses you, you don't choose the company. It is easy to say that money is the difference, but the money is there no matter where you are at. Forget the 20 mil, say that when you graduated college a company picked you and you had no choice but to go there. Then your first opportunity to get out comes and you extend, locking yourself in thinking that certain things are going to happen, you owe them, you're going to get a certain promotion or status. Then it doesn't happen. A couple years later, you get another opportunity to make your own choice and another company is willing to hire you AND offers a life that you desire a little more. It is bullshit if you say that you aren't going to think about your own happiness and well being.

Well, where you and I differ is Lebron is comparable to a CEO, and CEO's don't quit on their companies. Fair point about the company choosing you, but that just kind of goes with the territory of the major sports with a draft. Lebron is from the area, like the area. It's not about him not really wanting to be there and everything to do with Lebron quitting when things didn't go perfect and taking the easy out. It really says a lot about his character, and I think people are mostly criticizing that rather than some misguided belief he owes the team something.

gut;429652 wrote:Well, where you and I differ is Lebron is comparable to a CEO, and CEO's don't quit on their companies. Fair point about the company choosing you, but that just kind of goes with the territory of the major sports with a draft. Lebron is from the area, like the area. It's not about him not really wanting to be there and everything to do with Lebron quitting when things didn't go perfect and taking the easy out. It really says a lot about his character, and I think people are mostly criticizing that rather than some misguided belief he owes the team something.

LeBron is NOT a CEO, the Cavs have one of those (or a comparable title), I'm sure. He provides labor for the company and he has the union memberhsip to prove it. CEO's generally make a pretty good mint off the company they run, whether the company makes money or not. If you want to paint such a broad stroke with that, why would CEO's leave when they are raping the company for their own gain to begin with. Pretty selfish in their own right.

So it goes with the territory to be picked by a team, but it doesn't go with the territory to find other options during free agency in major sports?

I get your last point as far as what people are criticizing, but these are the same people that expected him to win a title for them. I see a lot of, "he promised a title and lied". He didn't take an easy out. Those do not exist in professional sports. He still has to go out and earn his pay and any titles he wins.

Again, sorry, whether he liked or didn't like Cleveland, he moved on to a better oppportunity FOR HIM. OMG, he is selfish when it comes to choosing where to ply his trade. I don't know what entirely was the deciding factor any more than you do but there's a lot to like about his situation and you're lying if you say that you wouldn't take a better situation for yourself if you had the opportunity. People want athletes to think differently.

I think had LeBron not made this into the show he did, people's asses wouldn't be so chapped about it. Players change teams all the time. But they way he went about was ridiculous.

After college Magic was tring to poke anything moving.

enigmaax;429714 wrote:LeBron is NOT a CEO, the Cavs have one of those (or a comparable title), I'm sure. He provides labor for the company and he has the union memberhsip to prove it. CEO's generally make a pretty good mint off the company they run, whether the company makes money or not. If you want to paint such a broad stroke with that, why would CEO's leave when they are raping the company for their own gain to begin with. Pretty selfish in their own right.

So it goes with the territory to be picked by a team, but it doesn't go with the territory to find other options during free agency in major sports?

I get your last point as far as what people are criticizing, but these are the same people that expected him to win a title for them. I see a lot of, "he promised a title and lied". He didn't take an easy out. Those do not exist in professional sports. He still has to go out and earn his pay and any titles he wins.

Oh please, CEO is the closest comparison - CLE may have a CEO but we all know who was running that team. You can't compare Lebron to some rank and file employee - he was the rainmaker, the star, brought in to "save" the team. That team was built around Lebron. Lebron was given everything he wanted. They did everything they could for Lebron. And when the team came up short, Lebron took his ball and went home. No character. No pride.

As for FA, one player doesn't impact baseball nearly as much and the NFL has franchise tags. It's just the way the NBA has been - the greats don't change teams, especially in their prime, with few exceptions. It's the primary motivation behind the Larry Bird rule.

WebFire;429735 wrote:I think had LeBron not made this into the show he did, people's asses wouldn't be so chapped about it. Players change teams all the time. But they way he went about was ridiculous.

I agree with that. I don't blame him so much for going, but the dog and pony show was too much. I couldn't believe he was going to have a one hour show to say fuck you cleveland, but that's just what he did.

The idea that Gilbert didn't provide LBJ with "pieces" is a joke. Gilbert provided all the pieces they needed, especially in 2008. Those that say he would never have won a title in Cleveland smoke too much crack. Passionate Cleveland Browns fans understand this. The casual drive by fans don't get it and never will.

The NBA has a very complex structure in place, so this type of nonsense doesn't occur. Unfortunately, from time to time, a loophole presents itself, and in this case, 3 superstar free agents colluded, and took advantage of it. As far as it being good for the NBA, count me out. It is not good for the league...even David Stern said as much, even before LBJ announced his decision.

What I will be rooting for is a lockout next season. The NBA negotiated an absolute shit deal the last time, and the owners will not be so stupid next time. Only a handfull of teams turned a profit over the past few years, and the league is not going to put up with that again.

yeah right???? those owners are like owners of a company there making money. there not paying these guys because they like them.

Footwedge;429814 wrote:What I will be rooting for is a lockout next season. The NBA negotiated an absolute shit deal the last time, and the owners will not be so stupid next time. Only a handfull of teams turned a profit over the past few years, and the league is not going to put up with that again.

I wonder if the NBA will try to get a franchise tag like in football to prevent this in the future. Maybe 1 tag per contract (i.e., you can't tag a guy one year, sign him, then tag another the following). I'm sure the players will resist, but it makes total sense for owners and the league to try and ensure a more equitable distribution of talent.

I always thought it would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Bain bought the NHL back a few years ago when it was in trouble. If you owned the entire league it might interesting to start moving players around and shifting competitive balances.

gut;429774 wrote:Oh please, CEO is the closest comparison - CLE may have a CEO but we all know who was running that team.

Honestly, that is a problem with Cleveland's management then. LeBron is a player. If (as a front office/owner) you can't manage that and put him in his place, that is your fault. If they catered to LeBron and let him get bigger or more powerful than themselves, that isn't LeBron's fault. They might have thought they were doing the right thing to keep him, but obviously they weren't - and those decisions are on them. If he was such a pain in the ass to deal with, why did they want him so bad? Oh that's right, so HE could make THEM money and win titles. It was business both ways, one party just didn't do it very well (hell, maybe neither of them).