I think with the evidence that Isadore has provided the federal government should just go ahead and seize the assets of BP and arrest Tony Hayward and other BP executives and send them to Leavonworth prison. This type of action will definitely turn Louisiana from a red state to a blue.

Wonder how much taxes the goverment will take out of this money ....before the people of Louisiana gets it.

isadore;392413 wrote:Enormous corporate entities are so lucky to have defenders like the Pauls, Barbara Bachman and you.
BP is so helpless without you. You are so worried about the “witch hunt.” The government exercising it legal powers to protect its citizen from corporate malfeasance is representative government of the people in action, only a witch hunt to criminals and their sympathizers. The major error of the Obama administration was passivity from the start, letting the criminals run the rescue of the victims, that was their mistake.
Nothing ever will come out to prove to you the definitive guilt of this corporate giant which killed 10 of its own employees and caused the greatest environmental disaster in our country’s history. Because of apologists and government timidity they have not yet received their just deserts. Even a 20 billion dollar stop gap payment will not do it.
They are guilty
They had been warned by their own employees of the danger but refused to act.
http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/49-49/2056-doomed-crew-warned-bp-of-danger
BP should have know of the possibility of failure but discounted it
http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/25/oil-spill-engineering-technology-cio-network-bp.html
BP had no disaster response plan
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/291430
/BP CEO admits they were not prepared
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704635204575241994030460412.html
But from the beginning have tried to hide the extent of the damage
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/6039614-media-restriction-to-oil-spill-causes-concerns

Are you really not listening and just being a typical liberal who intentionally ignores the argument to just be the loudest voice in the room in a misguided attempt to win support? I have repeatedly said that IF BP is guilty of any criminal wrongdoing or IF they owe and civil damages that they are not already paying for, then they should be held responsible...AFTER THE CRISIS IS AVERTED.

While the links you provide appear to be damning, it is not evidence, just journalism. It could be skewed, incomplete or taken out of context for the purpose of headlines. It could be entirely true, as well. But, it is not for you to decide. You say they are guilty, but that is flat out false. In your opinion, they appear guilty. The courts will decide, based on actual evidence and testimony, their innocence or guilt and any liability. Not you, not me, not public opinion or the press. Let the system work and let the efforts remain focused on fixing the current problem.

FairwoodKing;392445 wrote:I think the people of Louisiana will be a little bit happier with Obama now that he has put BP's balls to the fire and demanded a minimum of $20B in payments. At least they know he's doing something.

It's great when Obama does 'something'. See the stimulus package and the health care bill.

Belly35;392482 wrote:Wonder how much taxes the goverment will take out of this money ....before the people of Louisiana gets it.

Why tax, when you can just takeover? Give it a few months and BP will stand for Barry Petroleum.

majorspark;392459 wrote:I think with the evidence that Isadore has provided the federal government should just go ahead and seize the assets of BP and arrest Tony Hayward and other BP executives and send them to Leavonworth prison. This type of action will definitely turn Louisiana from a red state to a blue.

results to be heartily wished.

BCBulldog;392493 wrote:Are you really not listening and just being a typical liberal who intentionally ignores the argument to just be the loudest voice in the room in a misguided attempt to win support? I have repeatedly said that IF BP is guilty of any criminal wrongdoing or IF they owe and civil damages that they are not already paying for, then they should be held responsible...AFTER THE CRISIS IS AVERTED.

While the links you provide appear to be damning, it is not evidence, just journalism. It could be skewed, incomplete or taken out of context for the purpose of headlines. It could be entirely true, as well. But, it is not for you to decide. You say they are guilty, but that is flat out false. In your opinion, they appear guilty. The courts will decide, based on actual evidence and testimony, their innocence or guilt and any liability. Not you, not me, not public opinion or the press. Let the system work and let the efforts remain focused on fixing the current problem.



It's great when Obama does 'something'. See the stimulus package and the health care bill.



Why tax, when you can just takeover? Give it a few months and BP will stand for Barry Petroleum.

We have just stepped into The Twilight Zone.

BCBulldog wrote:Are you really not listening and just being a typical liberal who intentionally ignores the argument to just be the loudest voice in the room in a misguided attempt to win support? I have repeatedly said that IF BP is guilty of any criminal wrongdoing or IF they owe and civil damages that they are not already paying for, then they should be held responsible...AFTER THE CRISIS IS AVERTED.

While the links you provide appear to be damning, it is not evidence, just journalism. It could be skewed, incomplete or taken out of context for the purpose of headlines. It could be entirely true, as well. But, it is not for you to decide. You say they are guilty, but that is flat out false. In your opinion, they appear guilty. The courts will decide, based on actual evidence and testimony, their innocence or guilt and any liability. Not you, not me, not public opinion or the press. Let the system work and let the efforts remain focused on fixing the current problem.

'AFTER THE CRISIS IS AVERTED, lol. Because of your unrequited love affair with BP you may not have noticed this 2 month long debacle caused by BP. Their incompetence and criminal actions killed 11 men and have done untold damage to the Gulf of Mexico. It can not be averted, it has happened and they did it. They have bought themselves some time with their excess profits to subvert the legal system, but their guilt is obvious to anyone who examines the incident. People can form opinions, that is allowable. But, of course, "none are so blind as those who will not see."

isadore;392599 wrote:'AFTER THE CRISIS IS AVERTED, lol. Because of your unrequited love affair with BP you may not have noticed this 2 month long debacle caused by BP. Their incompetence and criminal actions killed 11 men and have done untold damage to the Gulf of Mexico. It can not be averted, it has happened and they did it. They have bought themselves some time with their excess profits to subvert the legal system, but their guilt is obvious to anyone who examines the incident. People can form opinions, that is allowable. But, of course, "none are so blind as those who will not see."

My apologies, I meant to say 'abated'.

Obviously, I know what has occurred...that is the entire point of this discussion. I simply used the wrong word. I think most reasonable people would have picked up on that considering my previous remarks. I guess you did not, and for that, I submit my sincerest regrets.

But I will address your asinine statement that, "They have bought themselves some time with their excess profits to subvert the legal system, but their guilt is obvious to anyone who examines the incident."
I must address this in four parts:
1. You claim that they have "bought themselves some time". For what? Their giant master plan to destroy the Gulf of Mexico and in turn their entire value?
2. There is no such thing as excess profits, just profits. Deeming them to be excessive is purely subjective and frankly, sounds like envy.
3. Exactly how have they tried to subvert the legal system?
4. Guilt is not about perception, but about facts as they are applied toward law. You may feel they are guilty based on what new reports and conjecture you have observed or conjured up on your own, but legal guilt can only be determined through the legal process. Proclaiming them guilty before they have even been charged is at least premature and possibly slanderous/libelous.

isadore;392569 wrote:results to be heartily wished.

Here is a question for you. Who has caused the deaths of more innocent lives recently? BP or the federal government?

majorspark;392726 wrote:Here is a question for you. Who has caused the deaths of more innocent lives recently? BP or the federal government?

to whom would you be referring?

isadore;392762 wrote:to whom would you be referring?

Its a pretty simple question.

No, given your unbounded sympathy for BP it seemed reasonable to think you were unaware the damage they had done. And for that reason you thought that destruction and death could be averted. Most people with the power of observation and a conscience would be outraged by Bps conduct. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with your statement expressing seeming unawareness of their actions. My error in giving you that benefit, sorry.
Then what do you have to say in defense of evil:

BCBulldog wrote:1. You claim that they have "bought themselves some time". For what? Their giant master plan to destroy the Gulf of Mexico and in turn their entire value?

they did not plan to destroy the Gulf and kill eleven men. But their greed, purposeful shortsightedness and incompetence produced that result. They are criminally responsible as was Union Carbide in India, who I am sure did not have a master plan to kill hundreds of people.

BCBulldog wrote:2. There is no such thing as excess profits, just profits. Deeming them to be excessive is purely subjective and frankly, sounds like envy.

Of course there is excess profit, Especially seen in the gouging of the oil companies, anything to get their record profits. No envy on my part, they have got the blood of 11 men of those profits.

BCBulldog wrote:3. Exactly how have they tried to subvert the legal system?

“Justice delayed is justice denied.” BP is in the process covered for time by throwing around some of their excess profits. Many corporate villains have successfully used this tactic.

BCBulldog wrote:4. Guilt is not about perception, but about facts as they are applied toward law. You may feel they are guilty based on what new reports and conjecture you have observed or conjured up on your own, but legal guilt can only be determined through the legal process. Proclaiming them guilty before they have even been charged is at least premature and possibly slanderous/libelous

Gosh libeling BP, lol. Those murdering, polluting, greedy, corporate criminals. But its nice you are there to defend them against my little expedition into truth in labeling. You may dismiss the overwhelming evidence with claims of conjuring and conjecture, but it is there. You corporate apologists may try to rationalize or bury it, but its there. You may get what you want. Given large corporations abilities to so often shirk responsibility it would hardly be a surprise. But they are guilty.

majorspark;392774 wrote:Its a pretty simple question.

????

isadore, I refuse to re-hash the same arguments. You want to jump to all sorts of conclusions. I want to see what real investigations and criminal proceedings produce. You know, facts over feelings.

Hey isa, do you blame the federal government at all in this? They only 1) forced companies into deepwater drilling by not allowing them to drill on land and right offshore, where it's much safer and easier to stop a gushing pipeline, and 2) told BP where to dig the actual well that blew up. The Federal government has their hands all over this one, but they want to make BP out to be the horrible ones when a lot of this is because of the federal government as well. If not for environmetalists, we'd be drilling in ANWR and just offshore, which is MUCH safer.

The fact that Obama is acting like a dictator throughout all this is merely a sidenote to Progressives like you. Socialism doesn't work, read a book about how they all devolve into authoritarianism like Nazi Germany and the USSR.

BCBulldog;392817 wrote:isadore, I refuse to re-hash the same arguments. You want to jump to all sorts of conclusions. I want to see what real investigations and criminal proceedings produce. You know, facts over feelings.

your lack of feeling is obvious. I am sure BP appreciates the get out of jail card you handed them. Let them know, you may get a 5 cent a gallon discount on your gas. Dont forget to filter it first though for blood.

Bigmanbt:
They forced BP. So they put a gun to their CEOs head and said drill here or we will blow your brains out. Hardly. It was Bps choice. They decided to drill. They claimed they could do it safely. And they claimed if something did go wrong they were prepared As with their oil, their guilt is overflowing. Greed motivated them,. Without that well their yearly profits would only be $19,998,000,000.00 instead of $20,000,000,000.00/

While I am a supporter of a mix economy. Several very democratic nations in Europe have largely socialist economies and are not sliding into totalitarianism. Nazi regime was operating in an economy that was largely capitalistic.

isadore;392893 wrote:Bigmanbt:
They forced BP. So they put a gun to their CEOs head and said drill here or we will blow your brains out. Hardly. It was Bps choice. They decided to drill. They claimed they could do it safely. And they claimed if something did go wrong they were prepared As with their oil, their guilt is overflowing. Greed motivated them,. Without that well their yearly profits would only be $19,998,000,000.00 instead of $20,000,000,000.00/

While I am a supporter of a mix economy. Several very democratic nations in Europe have largely socialist economies and are not sliding into totalitarianism. Nazi regime was operating in an economy that was largely capitalistic.

You are a moron.

Those European economies that you are referring to as largly socialist are far worse off right now than we are as evidence by the number of EU companies that are/were on the verge of bankruptcy.

I'm also not defending BP at all, I'm like those above, lets get the oil cleaned up and then find out what/if there were any criminal activities or neglegence done by BP.

However, to tout their yearly profits is asinine and proof you don't understand business economics. Please tell me what BP's profit margin was last year and then tell me what a typical profit margin for an average company here in the US is.

isadore;392876 wrote:your lack of feeling is obvious. I am sure BP appreciates the get out of jail card you handed them. Let them know, you may get a 5 cent a gallon discount on your gas. Dont forget to filter it first though for blood.

Rule 5 in action right here, folks.

See Congress today for an example of Rule 11.

jmog;392909 wrote:You are a moron.

Those European economies that you are referring to as largly socialist are far worse off right now than we are as evidence by the number of EU companies that are/were on the verge of bankruptcy.

I'm also not defending BP at all, I'm like those above, lets get the oil cleaned up and then find out what/if there were any criminal activities or neglegence done by BP.

However, to tout their yearly profits is asinine and proof you don't understand business economics. Please tell me what BP's profit margin was last year and then tell me what a typical profit margin for an average company here in the US is.

Name calling, that’s not nice. Lol

Nazi Germany did not devolve into an dictatorship because of socialism, that is an idiotic idea. The Nazi theories on race and the fuehrer principle not economic policy made them a dictatorhsip.
As has been shown by several of the advanced nations of Europe you can have a socialist government without becoming a dictatorship.
And the economic situation there is a mixed bag with many of their nations doing better than we are. Example Norway.
http://www.oecd.org/document/42/0,3343,en_2649_33733_44701354_1_1_1_1,00.html

isadore;392929 wrote:Name calling, that’s not nice. Lol

Then stop acting like a moron. Simple.

BCBulldog;392924 wrote:Rule 5 in action right here, folks.

See Congress today for and example of Rule 11.

throughout history folks there are those that will deny the obvious facts before their eyes.
there were those that could look at the effects of slavery and still refuse to denounce those who committed that evil, claiming the evidence was not in yet. there were those who could look at the pictures, film and even testimony from the death camps and still refuse to denounce the perpetrators of the Holocaust, claiming the evidence was not in yet. there are those who can read and watch what BP has done in the Gulf and continue to claim the evidence is not there.

fish82;392932 wrote:Then stop acting like a moron. Simple.

to some like yourself telling the truth about a murdering corporate entity and its allies is a wrong, I dont think it is wrong.

isadore;392938 wrote:throughout history folks there are those that will deny the obvious facts before their eyes.
there were those that could look at the effects of slavery and still refuse to denounce those who committed that evil, claiming the evidence was not in yet. there were those who could look at the pictures, film and even testimony from the death camps and still refuse to denounce the perpetrators of the Holocaust, claiming the evidence was not in yet. there are those who can read and watch what BP has done in the Gulf and continue to claim the evidence is not there.

No denial here. I just believe in verification of facts, quality control, evidence and clear-headed evaluation. I know it doesn't grab headlines, but like most things that are 'boring', it is the best approach. But that doesn't jive with The Rules, now does it?

I have no idea what set of rules you are talking about, but I do have a very good idea about what happened in the gulf. Of course we have folks like you, rand paul and barbara bachman there to put the best interests of bp forward. It was just an unforseeable accident that they should not be held responsible. Lets practice sophistry, lets obfuscate, lets spread around some money, lets bury this deep in drawnout legal proceeding with our inexhaustable supply of corporate legal eagles.

If thats you Representative Barton, BP says keep up the good work.

isadore;392957 wrote:I have no idea what set of rules you are talking about,

Damnit, that means you are one of the indoctrinated who actually believes the rubbish you are spewing. I was hoping you were just an activist-type who uses Alinsky's Rules to confuse and divert people to your way of thinking for the purpose of controlling them.

isadore;392957 wrote:but I do have a very good idea about what happened in the gulf. Of course we have folks like you, rand paul and barbara bachman there to put the best interests of bp forward. It was just an unforseeable accident that they should not be held responsible. Lets practice sophistry, lets obfuscate, lets spread around some money, lets bury this deep in drawnout legal proceeding with our inexhaustable supply of corporate legal eagles.

If thats you Representative Barton, BP says keep up the good work.

If they are liable, which I believe they probably are, then there is no way they get out of it. Why you want to deliver the verdict and sentence before the charge is even made...hell before the purported criminal act is even complete...is beyond me.