Further things that make me think the island was purgatory:

Penny was never on the island nor in the alternate timeline, but did appear in the church. This makes me think you had to have died to appear on the island. Penny had not died, but did make it to the church when she finally did die and did not need purgatory due to not having questions in her past life to deal with the way the other characters did.

Sun and Jin's daughter was not in the church. For them to pass on, they would wait for her...assuming that waiting is allowed, which we have obviously already accepted. The daughter is not there because she was neevr born. Sun died in the plane crash and the pregnancy was never real. This is also the reason that no children were ever born on the island (except for 3...Jacob, MIB, and Aaron). There is still no legit explanation for Jacob and MIB. Which brings me to...

Aaron was not in the church either. A character this important to the show would have been accounted for. No way Claire, Charlie, or even Kate would move on without him. They would wait. Why was Aaron not there? Claire died in the plane crash and Aaron was never actually born.

great take,apple..and for the record,I think the producers got exactly what they wanted--to have us formulate our own opinions as to what the show,and the finale,represented

btw,I may be wrong,but I thought Aaron was there...

Yeah, I saw aaron there.

I really don't think they were all dead, go to other lost forums, and read all the explanations people have. It simply doesn't make sense that they were dead the whole time. It doesn't explain when they got off the island, or anything about that, and makes much of it pretty much pointless.

The point of the show to me is this: the important thing in life is not necessarily knowing the answer to everything (good vs evil- there is a grey area..see across the sea, science vs. faith-- it takes a bit of both, etc.); the important thing in life is creating relationships between people and letting go of your shortcomings and failures. Christian and Jack's conversation make it clear that they were alive on the island:

C: Hey, kiddo.
J: Dad?
C: Hello, Jack.
J: I don't understand...you died.
C: Yes, I did.
J: Then, how are you here right now?
C: How are YOU here?
J: I died, too?
C: It's okay. It's okay, son (hug)
J: I love you, dad...are you real?
C: I sure hope so...yeah, I'm real. All those people in the church...they're real, too.
J: They're all...
C: Everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some of them before you, some long after you.
J: Are they all here now?
C: Well, there is no "Now" here.
J: Where are we, dad?
C: This is a place that you--that you all made together--that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed them and they needed you.
J: For what?
C: To remember....and let go.
J: Kate--she said we were leaving.
C: Not leave--No--Moving on.
J: Where are we going?
C: Let's go find out.


Plus: Like I said before, the shoe hanging in the bamboo was old this time, and was new the first time, showing the passage of time. The image of the plane at the end had clothes laid out on the beach like the survivors did when they first crashed.

Some argue that purgatory is an extension of life...not yet the afterlife.

I just have a hard time believing that the supernatural island was real.

I also think that the island being real and them just dying whenever is too simplistic for a show that has been ultra-complex from day one.

When did they show the shoe on the tree the first time?

ksig489 wrote: Some argue that purgatory is an extension of life...not yet the afterlife.

I just have a hard time believing that the supernatural island was real.

I also think that the island being real and them just dying whenever is too simplistic for a show that has been ultra-complex from day one.

The shoe was in the tree during the Pilot I believe.

The point of Lost is that yes, the island was insane, and there was a light to protect, yadda, yadda, yadda. But in the end, it doesn't matter at all because what does matter is making amends for things we did, and spending eternity with those that mean the most to us. For our Losties, that was this Sideways purgatory world. Other people would have their own way of moving on, and with different people. But leaving the questions unanswered was the writers way of saying our lives are about the relationships we make. Very existentialistic.

ksig489 wrote:
Sun and Jin's daughter was not in the church. For them to pass on, they would wait for her...assuming that waiting is allowed, which we have obviously already accepted. The daughter is not there because she was neevr born. Sun died in the plane crash and the pregnancy was never real. This is also the reason that no children were ever born on the island (except for 3...Jacob, MIB, and Aaron). There is still no legit explanation for Jacob and MIB. Which brings me to...

There was 1 other person that was born on the island and that was Ethan, son of the Dharma Initiative's leader that was killed. Also, wasn't Miles born on the island? His father was the Dharma Initiative's lead scientist. Alex was also born on the island and taken away from Roseau by Ben. I think you are reaching too much (which is probably what the writers wanted) with your theory.

ohiotiger33 wrote: The point of the show to me is this: the important thing in life is not necessarily knowing the answer to everything (good vs evil- there is a grey area..see across the sea, science vs. faith-- it takes a bit of both, etc.); the important thing in life is creating relationships between people and letting go of your shortcomings and failures. Christian and Jack's conversation make it clear that they were alive on the island:

C: Hey, kiddo.
J: Dad?
C: Hello, Jack.
J: I don't understand...you died.
C: Yes, I did.
J: Then, how are you here right now?
C: How are YOU here?
J: I died, too?
C: It's okay. It's okay, son (hug)
J: I love you, dad...are you real?
C: I sure hope so...yeah, I'm real. All those people in the church...they're real, too.
J: They're all...
C: Everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some of them before you, some long after you.
J: Are they all here now?
C: Well, there is no "Now" here.
J: Where are we, dad?
C: This is a place that you--that you all made together--that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed them and they needed you.
J: For what?
C: To remember....and let go.
J: Kate--she said we were leaving.
C: Not leave--No--Moving on.
J: Where are we going?
C: Let's go find out.


Plus: Like I said before, the shoe hanging in the bamboo was old this time, and was new the first time, showing the passage of time. The image of the plane at the end had clothes laid out on the beach like the survivors did when they first crashed.

I think you nailed it. What led me to the same conclusion as you is when Christian said, "some died before you (Sun and Jin) and some died long after you (Hurley, Kate, Ben).

The writers stated they were not dead before, which is what they were talking about on the island. They never commented anything about that in the alt. timeline.

ksig489 wrote:

ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Spoiler:

I thought the writers said it wasn't purgatory?
Not a fan of the last 5 minutes.
What about Ben outside? Did he not pass on?
Still the rest of it was awesome.

Ben passed...the church was the "gates to Heaven"...Unfortunately for Ben, his destination was elsewhere. He had a few too many bad moments to make it through the gates.

Here's my take on Ben: everyone else had a "better" life on this island, whether it was Syed not being a torturer and loving Shannon after losing the previous love of his life, or Kate being a "free woman" and not a fugitive, etc. I could go on and on.

However, on the island, Ben was a scoundral, responsible for the death of his only daughter. However, in the alt-universe (afterlife), Ben was a good man, with a young woman who looked up to him as a father figure, doing good. To him, there was no need to pass -- he was exactly where he wanted to be. Once he remembered his island experience, he realized that by not passing with the rest of the group, he could be with his daughter again, this time serving as a good father.

Maybe Ben is now the #1 island protector. Did he say something about having more work to do?

ksig489 wrote: Maybe Ben is now the #1 island protector. Did he say something about having more work to do?

No, Ben said he had some things to tie up (IE his relationship with Alex IMO).

I think you should watch the finale again, it seems as though your theories are jumping around a bit.

^^we DVR'd it for that specific reason--to watch it again and maybe get a different perspective

PS, I was hoping for an appearance from Mr. Eko (remember him?). That guy rocked! Oh well ...

BigAppleBuckeye wrote:

ksig489 wrote:

ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Spoiler:

I thought the writers said it wasn't purgatory?
Not a fan of the last 5 minutes.
What about Ben outside? Did he not pass on?
Still the rest of it was awesome.

Ben passed...the church was the "gates to Heaven"...Unfortunately for Ben, his destination was elsewhere. He had a few too many bad moments to make it through the gates.

Here's my take on Ben: everyone else had a "better" life on this island, whether it was Syed not being a torturer and loving Shannon after losing the previous love of his life, or Kate being a "free woman" and not a fugitive, etc. I could go on and on.

However, on the island, Ben was a scoundral, responsible for the death of his only daughter. However, in the alt-universe (afterlife), Ben was a good man, with a young woman who looked up to him as a father figure, doing good. To him, there was no need to pass -- he was exactly where he wanted to be. Once he remembered his island experience, he realized that by not passing with the rest of the group, he could be with his daughter again, this time serving as a good father.

Throw Eloise Hawking in that mix too, of not wanting to move on. She remebered everything, but chooses to linger on in this "afterlife" so she can be with her son, Daniel. She doesn't want to let go and move on, just like Ben.

Exactly. And Desmond says he (dan) isn't coming with them. I assume he will move on with Charlotte/miles/etc. Just like I imagine Ben will move on with Alex and Danielle eventually. You move on with those people that were the most important to you.

I couldn't remember Ben's exact words. I DVR'd it...I am just trying to make sense of things. I still don't think any one theory makes 100% sense.

Just like I don't think they explained Jacob and the MIB at all.

ksig489 wrote: I couldn't remember Ben's exact words. I DVR'd it...I am just trying to make sense of things. I still don't think any one theory makes 100% sense.

Just like I don't think they explained Jacob and the MIB at all.

Understandable haha. LOST is a crazy show. Don't pay too much attention to the end shots of the plane, they werent even shown in canada and the UK apparently. So it can't be that important.

Is it safe to assume that Aaron died on the island? In the pilot, I remember Claire mentioning that the baby hadn't kicked in some time, this after she fell frontwards onto her belly when a portion of the plane wreckage exploded.

The reason I ask is, if Aaron indeed survived and lived a happy life, why would he "pass on" as a baby? (PS, I think Aaron was in the church at the end, but I can't remember right now)

agree, think Aaron died in utero and moved on with Claire as an extension of the "happy life" on the island.

BigAppleBuckeye wrote: (PS, I think Aaron was in the church at the end, but I can't remember right now)

he was there with Charlie and Claire

So Aaron died as a baby and didnt live a few years as shown in the flash forward episodes when Kate and Jack were acting as his parents?

I don't remember seeing him in the church scene...was he a baby there or a toddler?

ksig489 wrote: So Aaron died as a baby and didnt live a few years as shown in the flash forward episodes when Kate and Jack were acting as his parents?

I don't remember seeing him in the church scene...was he a baby there or a toddler?

I think Aaron lived on, but much like Walt, child actors grow up quickly and it may have been easier to have an infant in the church instead of recasting Aaron to have him the appropriate age or using the same actor who probably looks much older.

ksig489 wrote: So Aaron died as a baby and didnt live a few years as shown in the flash forward episodes when Kate and Jack were acting as his parents?

I don't remember seeing him in the church scene...was he a baby there or a toddler?

Newborn. It is irrelevant to me. As it seems like everyone was in the same form as they were on the island. It was how everyone remembers each other. So even though Kate, Sawyer and Hurley lived well past the events of the last episode and aged, they appeared the same in the church.

Aaron is a newborn, because that is how he was on the island with Claire and Charlie, even though Aaron probably lived a full life. Same goes for Kate and Hurley.

Aaron was there as a baby.

I thought the fianle was great. The only thing that keeps me thinking is where Jacob and MIB are........

Here is a great insight I found on Lostpedia that I really like. Jacob and MIB were just men Crosby, and Jacob was the leader of the island, a title that allows you to choose how you govern.

Here it is:

My immediate response to the finale was that it was satisfying emotionally but not intellectually. I've always enjoyed Lost on both levels, and was a little disappointed that the intellectual aspect was almost entirely neglected at the end, and besides giving me my happy ending (I love happy endings!) I'm not sure if there was any story reason to let us know that, even as miserable as the characters' lives were, it will all be okay once they die and get to Heaven.

HOWEVER... upon reflection, I think a key bit of info in the finale can be applied retroactively to explain a good portion of the unexplained moments of the show.

The conversation between Ben and Hurley at the end, where Ben says they need to send Desmond home to be with his family, and Hurley says "But no one can leave the Island," and Ben says that's how Jacob ran things, and maybe Hurley can run things differently.

Ah, I see!

Folks around here have paid a lot of attention to trying to figure out "the rules." Why can't Man-in-Black kill Jacob? Why is it hard to have babies on the Island? Why could Hurley become "Protector" if Jack never said the "magic words" over the bottle of water? And so on and so on...

Consider this: The Island appears to contain some kind of otherworldly energy/power. It's difficult to define, but it appears to be analogous to the spark of life within all mankind. The question has always been what causes this energy to make things on the Island behave as they do, and the answer appears to be the willpower of the Island's protector.

Or perhaps, more accurately, the Island is what people believe it to be.

Again, it comes back to parenting issues. Stop thinking of Jacob as a God-like being and starting thinking of him as a very flawed person with access to a lot of power, and suddenly a lot of things become clear. His foster "mom" killed his real mom, drove a wedge between him and his brother, raised him in almost total isolation, told him that the only things that mattered in the world were the two of them and the Island itself, and wiped out an entire village full of people to "protect" the Island. Any one of these things happening to a child would create a deeply neurotic and disturbed individual. Just the isolation alone is liable to drive someone crazy.

So like his "crazy mom", Jacob went on to live a life of paranoia and self-justification. Jacob had to believe he had a purpose, and that all this was happening for a reason, and even though hundreds of people were killed, he told himself it was for the greater good, and that the people whose lives he destroyed weren't having such a great life off the Island anyway.

Jacob's "mom" told him it was important that his brother didn't leave the Island, and therefore it was almost impossible for people to leave the Island.

Jacob and his brother were told that they couldn't kill each other, and since they believed it, then they couldn't.

Jacob had a boatload of subconscious mommy-issues, and therefore it was difficult for people to give birth. However, when he liked you, like he liked his "candidates," they WERE able to give birth. His candidates were also healed of many of their chronic diseases, while others weren't. Jacob himself admitted that being a candidate wasn't a magical job title--they are just names on a wall--but he certainly treated them differently.

Okay, I'm rambling. Listen: I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. (Jay & Jack Lost Finale Party! Woo!)

But the point is that almost everything that happened on the Island was not due to any universal or objective "rules," but were actually due to the belief and perception of the Island's inhabitants. The person who believes themself to be the Island's protector has the most influence, but many people have a little influence.

Why would saying some "magic words" over a liquid make you the Island's protector? Why would the Island respond to magic words? The details of the ceremony are irrelevant. Jacob, and then Jack, and then Hurley became the protector of the Island because they believed they were.

Does this explain EVERYTHING? No. But considering that the people of the Island, and Jacob especially, are flawed, and accepting that the Island responds to the desires and beliefs of its inhabitants, and a lot of weirdness and inconsistencies are cleared up.



I was thinking about how this conversation explains the Others, but not in a way we expected.

The Others were a group of people recruited by Jacob to help him protect the Island. Jacob did things the wrong way and led them around blindly and occasionally performed a miracle to help them keep the faith.

Ben told Hurley that he could do things better, which he will/did by not twisting people around, like Jacob did with Ben and Richard.