BR1986FB wrote:

Pick6 wrote: I know this doesn't pertain to everyone, but fuck all you so called cleveland fans that has a problem with lebron(mr.300). You actually have an athlete worth 2 shits in your city and you bash him? Saying "I root for the uniform, not whos in it" shit. You dont deserve a championship. No wonder the only cleveland team i root for is the cavs, just because they are in ohio.

We're pissed because he tanked what might have been his last few games in a Cleveland uniform and we "don't deserve a championship?" Fuck you and the horse you road in on.

This town is a blue collar town that will fight and scratch until the end. We may not win a lot but we don't fucking give up. THAT is what has MOST people are pissed about. We DON'T like quitters. Modell quit on this town and he continues to be vilified.

He pussied out when it counted. Had he given it his all and fought to the finish, it would have been a different story. It looked, to me, like he tanked so he'd HAVE all of the backlash (fans turning on him) so he'd have an easy exit to another city.

As far as the article? Looked spot on to me.

it would be easy to say he tanked. but i really wonder. i really dont know about his elbow injury. but i think he has some injury that the cavs arent saying anything about and i think he has had it for a while now. he didnt play the the last 2 weeks of the season and in the first round of the play offs he has a elbow injury? when did this occur? its like it came out of the blue. did anyone watch the presser after game 3? one of the first questions asked of james was " was your elbow feeling ok or did you over come your fear of needles?". i found that to be a odd question. i mean really this is the guy that single handly beat the piston in one of the most outstanding performances in nba history. and the same guy that didnt shake hands with the magic after last years post season exit. he got railed for that. that in itself showed this guy doesnt like losing at all. did he tank? i dont know. but something in his game was amiss.

I remember Isiah's Pistons trying to get past Boston and LA, and then Jordan's Bulls trying to get past the Pistons. When you saw those guys after coming up short again, the demeanor was noticeably different than Lebron.

Lebron doesn't have that killer instinct. He'll look like it, at times, when he's feeling it and putting on a show, but at this point he doesn't have that sense of urgency for a title. And maybe part of it is he's still only 25 and figures to have a good 8-10 years left as one of the best. Maybe part is he's looking at Chicago and sees a new window opening as another one appears to have closed. But I don't see a guy driven to be a champion at this point.

I have a feeling as the criticisms go longer that he will become more desperate for the title to validate his greatness. No one should be compared to MJ until they have 2-3 titles themself.

The "teammate" argument is just so weak. Great champions are always underappreciated for how they make that whole team work, the invisible glue in chemistry. And similarly overrated stars generally have better casts than given credit for, they just don't make it work as well.

Personally, I think the problem is mostly coaching. But keep in mind that Lebron the NBA champion is probably not the same dominant, astonishing player as Lebron the one-man-show now sitting on his sofa. This series against Boston really illustrates the point. Lebron is an example of a great player stuffing the stat sheets in a losing performance. Rondo is an example of a great player making plays in a championship performance. Lebron's game - and maybe it's coaching - does not sync with the team in a way you need to win a title. Rondo displayed a great sense of when to step up, when to defer and how to manage and balance that. With Lebron it's a switch - take over completely or be a bystander. At least in this series, Lebron didn't have that same sense for flow and how to control it.

gut wrote: The "teammate" argument is just so weak. Great champions are always underappreciated for how they make that whole team work, the invisible glue in chemistry. And similarly overrated stars generally have better casts than given credit for, they just don't make it work as well.

It's not weak at all. His supporting cast sucks, that's a fact. It's worse than what Howard is working with, worse than what Kobe is working with, worse than what Nash is working with.

And honestly, it's not even close. Lebron fooled everyone because he could hide the inefficiencies of the Cavs in the regular season, but come playoff time, they got exposed and Lebron doesn't couldn't do it all himself.

Really, he had a triple double in the last game and people are questioning him. Just how ironic is that? What else do you want one individual to do?

thedynasty1998 wrote: Really, he had a triple double in the last game and people are questioning him. Just how ironic is that? What else do you want one individual to do?

Sure, just ignore the NINE turnovers.

The teammate argument is weak. All we heard all offseason, the last few offseasons, is how they made some good moves and Lebron finally had the pieces. Always after-the-fact his cast isn't good enough. The fact is they had the best record in the league two years in a row and couldn't even get to the finals. "Supporting cast" arguments are for losers, it's always that someone's favorite player just doesn't have as much around him. It's less true and true far less often than homers will admit. Great player win titles because it's just "easier", for lack of a better term, to surround them with the supporting cast. Maybe it's more a question of basketball IQ than talent, but Lebron is missing something.

He's a one man show. He's simply not the great team players in the traditional sense. He gets a lot of numbers because everything in that offense is funnelled through him, and that's part of the problem. And it may work in the regular season but maybe Sir James is just not up to the challenge in the postseason.

He got outplayed by Rondo. He wasn't the best player on the court in that series and when so much of you revolves around one guy, that's kind of a problem.

You really cannot mention Lebron in the same breath as MJ right now, and really not even Kobe. As good as Lebron is, when you watched him against Boston you got a sense that he didn't really have a feel for how to manage the game. The greats always just know when their team needs a couple of plays and they deliver. Lebron either doesn't get that or he goes too far completely taking over, and neither is productive to your team winning playoff games.

I'm not comparing him to MJ.

As for Rondo outplaying him, yes and no. Rondo played well, but he has the help that Lebron doesn't. So, you shut down Rondo with the risk of Pierce going off, or Ray Allen getting open looks, or KG finishing around the basket. You shut down Lebron, and he passes it off to Varejao? You can't really compare Rondo's play to Lebron's when they are in different situations.

As for you saying:

All we heard all offseason, the last few offseasons, is how they made some good moves

Who were you listening to? I'm never thought the Cavs made the right moves. Shaq was supposed to get them over the hump? Your big free agent signing is Anthony Parker? You draft a guy from the Congo? You don't leave yourself with a 1st round pick this year? You trade for an overrated Jamison? You sign Boobie to $4 million a year?

What move has the Cavs made that has put them in a good situation for the future? Hell, they don't even have anyone on the roster who another team might covet for trade bait. Hickson is their most promising young player, and he's just not that good.

gut wrote:

thedynasty1998 wrote: Really, he had a triple double in the last game and people are questioning him. Just how ironic is that? What else do you want one individual to do?

Sure, just ignore the NINE turnovers.

The teammate argument is weak. All we heard all offseason, the last few offseasons, is how they made some good moves and Lebron finally had the pieces. Always after-the-fact his cast isn't good enough. The fact is they had the best record in the league two years in a row and couldn't even get to the finals. "Supporting cast" arguments are for losers, it's always that someone's favorite player just doesn't have as much around him. It's less true and true far less often than homers will admit. Great player win titles because it's just "easier", for lack of a better term, to surround them with the supporting cast. Maybe it's more a question of basketball IQ than talent, but Lebron is missing something.

He's a one man show. He's simply not the great team players in the traditional sense. He gets a lot of numbers because everything in that offense is funnelled through him, and that's part of the problem. And it may work in the regular season but maybe Sir James is just not up to the challenge in the postseason.

He got outplayed by Rondo. He wasn't the best player on the court in that series and when so much of you revolves around one guy, that's kind of a problem.

You really cannot mention Lebron in the same breath as MJ right now, and really not even Kobe. As good as Lebron is, when you watched him against Boston you got a sense that he didn't really have a feel for how to manage the game. The greats always just know when their team needs a couple of plays and they deliver. Lebron either doesn't get that or he goes too far completely taking over, and neither is productive to your team winning playoff games.

Good post.

I've said it more than a few times that people who try to compare him to Jordan are just wrong (not referring to dynasty). NO WAY Michael Jordan QUITS on his team in game 5. Jordan would have put the team on his back and gotten the win.

BR1986FB wrote:

gut wrote:

thedynasty1998 wrote: Really, he had a triple double in the last game and people are questioning him. Just how ironic is that? What else do you want one individual to do?

Sure, just ignore the NINE turnovers.

The teammate argument is weak. All we heard all offseason, the last few offseasons, is how they made some good moves and Lebron finally had the pieces. Always after-the-fact his cast isn't good enough. The fact is they had the best record in the league two years in a row and couldn't even get to the finals. "Supporting cast" arguments are for losers, it's always that someone's favorite player just doesn't have as much around him. It's less true and true far less often than homers will admit. Great player win titles because it's just "easier", for lack of a better term, to surround them with the supporting cast. Maybe it's more a question of basketball IQ than talent, but Lebron is missing something.

He's a one man show. He's simply not the great team players in the traditional sense. He gets a lot of numbers because everything in that offense is funnelled through him, and that's part of the problem. And it may work in the regular season but maybe Sir James is just not up to the challenge in the postseason.

He got outplayed by Rondo. He wasn't the best player on the court in that series and when so much of you revolves around one guy, that's kind of a problem.

You really cannot mention Lebron in the same breath as MJ right now, and really not even Kobe. As good as Lebron is, when you watched him against Boston you got a sense that he didn't really have a feel for how to manage the game. The greats always just know when their team needs a couple of plays and they deliver. Lebron either doesn't get that or he goes too far completely taking over, and neither is productive to your team winning playoff games.

Good post.

I've said it more than a few times that people who try to compare him to Jordan are just wrong (not referring to dynasty). NO WAY Michael Jordan QUITS on his team in game 5. Jordan would have put the team on his back and gotten the win.

Add the fact that lebron's supporting cast was better than what MJ had during his first championship. Great points BR.

Well, it just pisses me off when people compare him to the "greats." Sure, he's a great at filling up the stat sheet but he needs to quit being buddies with these losers and start being a fucking asshole.

Like that article said, Jordan was HATED by his teammates. Maybe LBJ could learn a thing or two from that. You don't have to be liked to be a leader....you just have to LEAD.

BR1986FB wrote: Well, it just pisses me off when people compare him to the "greats." Sure, he's a great at filling up the stat sheet but he needs to quit being buddies with these losers and start being a fucking asshole.

Like that article said, Jordan was HATED by his teammates. Maybe LBJ could learn a thing or two from that. You don't have to be liked to be a leader....you just have to LEAD.

LeBron wants to be a friend instead of a leader. Just looking at the goofing around before games. I wonder if LeBron had things too easy to build a hunger. Much of MJ's hunger comes from the fact that he was cut from the varsity in high school. Then MJ had a great college coach in Dean Smith who taught him a lot about the game. LeBron has basically had everything given to him since he was in middle school. He's never had anyone tell him "no", and he acted like a spoiled brat when things weren't going his way instead of fighting through it. There is no excuse for the quitting that he did.

Maybe, just maybe, this will be what lights the fire for Lebron.

I agree with everyone who says you can't compare him to Jordan. Jordan was an asshole and didn't give a shit if his teammates liked him (like Kobe), and that's what took him over the top. The difference in Jordan and Kobe's careers is that today's media is more interested in the behind the closed doors and likes to report it. Jordan's relationships didn't really surface until after his playing days were over and that's why no one ever thought of him the same way people think of Kobe today.

I don't fault Lebron for wanting to please everyone (I think Dwight Howard is in the same category), because he can still be an elite player. But he does need that alpha dog in the locker room who will give him shit if he does want the championships.

BR1986FB wrote: Well, it just pisses me off when people compare him to the "greats." Sure, he's a great at filling up the stat sheet but he needs to quit being buddies with these losers and start being a fucking asshole.

Like that article said, Jordan was HATED by his teammates. Maybe LBJ could learn a thing or two from that. You don't have to be liked to be a leader....you just have to LEAD.

He isn't on MJ's block yet.... but he's 25. I'm not a big LBJ fan, but I've made a thread asking who the greatest will be. These next 3 years are key for him. If he makes a bad choice and goes to a place that he's ringless, he'll never get on MJ's block. If he goes to a place and gets some rings, then the discussion will be in full swing by the time he retires. He's more athletic, but not a better player. He's ONLY 25 though. He's got around 10 more years to build upon his resume.

The dancing shtick and the stupid group photo taking thing on the sideline always seemed a little odd for a Tier 1 NBA star. Can you imagine Michael Jordan snapping pictures of Luc Longley before a game?

^^ I never got that stuff... a bit immature IMO. Winning should bring all the fun. Laugh at practice, stomp on hearts at games. Just my opinion though.

jpake1 wrote: ^^ I never got that stuff... a bit immature IMO. Winning should bring all the fun. Laugh at practice, stomp on hearts at games. Just my opinion though.

Agreed. I was always brought up to believe that the ONLY reason you play is to WIN. "Fun" is just a side effect. You play to WIN the game.

Yeah. I mean you can crack jokes at work, but when its time to bring it... bring it. It never made me mad.. but if I were coach, I would have WENT OFF. It's the fact that you're at WORK... so do it. I know they balled great while doing it, but it's the principle of things.

jpake1 wrote: Yeah. I mean you can crack jokes at work, but when its time to bring it... bring it. It never made me mad.. but if I were coach, I would have WENT OFF. It's the fact that you're at WORK... so do it. I know they balled great while doing it, but it's the principle of things.

When Noah went off on Lebron earlier this year my Cavalier-fan roommates were actually calling Noah names and making fun of him. In my head I actually agreed with Noah. Lebron just looked stupid out there and in a way was showing up the Bulls. I would have given Lebron a hard foul for that. To me it seems bush-league.