Big Ten Expansion Invites...

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sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
May 18, 2010 5:24 PM
If you add teams, the pie grows, everyone should understand this, even SEC fans.
May 18, 2010 5:24pm
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
May 18, 2010 9:18 PM
sleeper wrote: If you add teams, the pie grows, everyone should understand this, even SEC fans.
yea, the question is if the pie grows in proportion to the current slices...is the new slice of pie (cut say from a 12 way pie) the same size as the slice of pie from the current pie?
May 18, 2010 9:18pm
S

sjmvsfscs08

Senior Member

2,963 posts
May 18, 2010 10:32 PM
sleeper wrote: If you add teams, the pie grows, everyone should understand this, even SEC fans.
If you add Owens Community College, the size of the pie will not grow and teams would receive considerably less. The thought process is "how much can we grow the pie" though, and so teams that would have been a better choice prior to the Big Ten Network are passed up for teams previously outside of the picture. Ten years ago Rutgers would've been laughed at, now due to their location near television markets they're a nice choice. I personally think Pittsburgh is the best choice but because they don't "add anything" to the conference outside of some rivalries they aren't going to get added.

The addition to fourteen teams should be Missouri, Notre Dame, and Pittsburgh. If they expand to 16 then add Nebraska and Rutgers in addition. But for the love of God Pittsburgh just fits so well with the Big Ten it'd be a shame to ignore them.
May 18, 2010 10:32pm
krambman's avatar

krambman

Senior Member

3,606 posts
May 19, 2010 12:31 AM
sjmvsfscs08 wrote:
sleeper wrote: If you add teams, the pie grows, everyone should understand this, even SEC fans.
If you add Owens Community College, the size of the pie will not grow and teams would receive considerably less. The thought process is "how much can we grow the pie" though, and so teams that would have been a better choice prior to the Big Ten Network are passed up for teams previously outside of the picture. Ten years ago Rutgers would've been laughed at, now due to their location near television markets they're a nice choice. I personally think Pittsburgh is the best choice but because they don't "add anything" to the conference outside of some rivalries they aren't going to get added.

The addition to fourteen teams should be Missouri, Notre Dame, and Pittsburgh. If they expand to 16 then add Nebraska and Rutgers in addition. But for the love of God Pittsburgh just fits so well with the Big Ten it'd be a shame to ignore them.
You are correct. If they were going to 16 teams strictly based on geography and competitiveness then Missouri, West Virginia, Notre Dame, Iowa State and Pitt would be the obvious choices.

Let's not kid ourselves, this move has nothing to do with improving the competitive nature of the conference. It is only about money. If expansion didn't improve revenue for all involved then they wouldn't expand.
May 19, 2010 12:31am
S

sjmvsfscs08

Senior Member

2,963 posts
May 19, 2010 1:11 AM
Well academically West Virginia doesn't come anywhere close, and Iowa State doesn't bring anything competitive outside of wrestling. I love wrestling (my cousin is the reigning national champ :D ) but I'm wise enough to know it doesn't mean shit.

I think the issue at hand is whether they are going to maximize their television earnings but sacrifice the quality. While Pittsburgh doesn't add any television revenue, it will add an elite basketball team and a quality football program that projects to get better. If Pittsburgh were in New Jersey, they'd get the nod 100% of the time over Rutgers. But the dollar is almighty. However I'm in the group of people which thinks Notre Dame will add New York to the Big Ten network anyway, and adding Rutgers is a bad move.

It's rather obvious, I'm in favor of an initial expansion of three teams: Missouri, Notre Dame, and Pittsburgh. Should they decide to add an additional two teams, Connecticut, Nebraska, Rutgers, and Syracuse are all in play. But I believe sixteen teams in a conference is absolutely ridiculous. You can barely play half the conference in a given season.
May 19, 2010 1:11am
T

thesystem

Junior Member

20 posts
May 19, 2010 6:43 AM
http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/the-value-of-expansion-candidates-to-the-big-ten-network/


CANDIDATES TOTAL ADDED REVENUE ESTIMATE

Texas $101,369,004
Rutgers WITH NYC $67,798,609
Nebraska $54,487,990
Maryland $50,818,889
Boston College $48,382,692
Notre Dame $47,629,255
Kansas $46,320,092
Missouri $45,901,459
Syracuse $43,504,813
Connecticut $38,080,271
Pittsburgh $34,365,175
Iowa State $31,831,077

Syracuse WITH NYC $65,874,573
May 19, 2010 6:43am
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
May 19, 2010 9:13 AM
thesystem wrote: http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/the-value-of-expansion-candidates-to-the-big-ten-network/


CANDIDATES TOTAL ADDED REVENUE ESTIMATE

Texas $101,369,004
Rutgers WITH NYC $67,798,609
Nebraska $54,487,990
Maryland $50,818,889
Boston College $48,382,692
Notre Dame $47,629,255
Kansas $46,320,092
Missouri $45,901,459
Syracuse $43,504,813
Connecticut $38,080,271
Pittsburgh $34,365,175
Iowa State $31,831,077

Syracuse WITH NYC $65,874,573
...I didn't click the link, but I would assume ND would be higher than BC, Maryland, Nebraska, Rutgers, etc...
May 19, 2010 9:13am
B

bigkahuna

Senior Member

4,454 posts
May 19, 2010 9:14 AM
I think it's funny how people keep saying 16 teams.

Granted it's a Mid-Major Conference, but the WAC used to be a 16 team League, and I think the NCAA made them breakup or they decided themselves to do so because it was just too difficult to manage during football season.

I think that IF they made the switch to 16, they would bump up the conference schedule to 9 (CFL said this). You would play the 7 in your division and 2 in the other. Let's say Nebraska, Missouri, Pitt, Rutgers, and UCONN.

Plains Division
Nebraska
Missouri
Iowa
Illinois
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Purdue
Indiana

Lakes Division
Northwestern
Michigan State
Michigan
OSU
Pitt
Penn State
Rutgers
UCONN

Those seem balanced right?
May 19, 2010 9:14am
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
May 19, 2010 10:24 AM
bigkahuna wrote: I think it's funny how people keep saying 16 teams.

Granted it's a Mid-Major Conference, but the WAC used to be a 16 team League, and I think the NCAA made them breakup or they decided themselves to do so because it was just too difficult to manage during football season.

I think that IF they made the switch to 16, they would bump up the conference schedule to 9 (CFL said this). You would play the 7 in your division and 2 in the other. Let's say Nebraska, Missouri, Pitt, Rutgers, and UCONN.

Plains Division
Nebraska
Missouri
Iowa
Illinois
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Purdue
Indiana

Lakes Division
Northwestern
Michigan State
Michigan
OSU
Pitt
Penn State
Rutgers
UCONN

Those seem balanced right?
OSU, Penn State and Michigan all in one division?!?
May 19, 2010 10:24am
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
May 19, 2010 10:37 AM
bigkahuna wrote: I think it's funny how people keep saying 16 teams.

Granted it's a Mid-Major Conference, but the WAC used to be a 16 team League, and I think the NCAA made them breakup or they decided themselves to do so because it was just too difficult to manage during football season.

I think that IF they made the switch to 16, they would bump up the conference schedule to 9 (CFL said this). You would play the 7 in your division and 2 in the other. Let's say Nebraska, Missouri, Pitt, Rutgers, and UCONN.

Plains Division
Nebraska
Missouri
Iowa
Illinois
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Purdue
Indiana

Lakes Division
Northwestern
Michigan State
Michigan
OSU
Pitt
Penn State
Rutgers
UCONN

Those seem balanced right?
Lakes division is much stronger.
May 19, 2010 10:37am
B

bigkahuna

Senior Member

4,454 posts
May 19, 2010 1:25 PM
If you look at other conferences that have divisions, there is always one dominating the other.

Big XII, when was the last time a North Team won the Conference?

SEC, Seriously besides Florida, who else is consistently able to compete with the West?
Basketball-The east ALWAYS dominates
ACC, I forget, but one of them is a lot better than the other.

I would say that what I proposed is far MORE balanced than existing conferences
May 19, 2010 1:25pm
S

SnotBubbles

May 19, 2010 1:28 PM
Posted by: kirby on 05/16/10 @ 10:49 am:

If the SEC is Angelina Jolie (every "Prettiest Girl" title goes thru her), the Pac 10 is Megan Fox (pretty but how deep is the talent?), and the Big 12 is, Insert "Big Blonde Texas Girl" here (verryy Texas), then the Big 10/11 is Betty White. Endearing, very old school but really not very exciting. I love Betty White, but shes not Maxim material. I hope we don't join the Betty White Conference.
LOL....that's actually a GREAT comparison (from http://www.omaha.com/article/20100516/SPORTS/705159781 link posted herein).
May 19, 2010 1:28pm
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
May 19, 2010 2:03 PM
bigkahuna wrote: If you look at other conferences that have divisions, there is always one dominating the other.

Big XII, when was the last time a North Team won the Conference?

SEC, Seriously besides Florida, who else is consistently able to compete with the West?
Basketball-The east ALWAYS dominates
ACC, I forget, but one of them is a lot better than the other.

I would say that what I proposed is far MORE balanced than existing conferences
I wasn't saying the other conferences were balanced, but I was just trying to answer your question if what you proposed was balanced. I like many of the smaller sports, but I know that football is what will be used to determine the divisions if/when expansion happens. Unless Nebraska comes back as a national power, I think the Lakes division that you proposed would win at least 70% of the football championships. If OSU and Michigan continue to play the last game of the season, they would have to remain in the same division. For balance, I think Penn State would have to be moved to the other division. If they want to realign by geography instead of making them equal, then the eastern half of the conference will be stronger. Teams like Iowa and Wisconsin put together good teams once in awhile, but neither has a strong enough recruiting base in state to be good every year. They just don't have the hs talent of states like Ohio and PA.
May 19, 2010 2:03pm
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
May 19, 2010 2:11 PM
SnotBubbles wrote:
Posted by: kirby on 05/16/10 @ 10:49 am:

If the SEC is Angelina Jolie (every "Prettiest Girl" title goes thru her), the Pac 10 is Megan Fox (pretty but how deep is the talent?), and the Big 12 is, Insert "Big Blonde Texas Girl" here (verryy Texas), then the Big 10/11 is Betty White. Endearing, very old school but really not very exciting. I love Betty White, but shes not Maxim material. I hope we don't join the Betty White Conference.
LOL....that's actually a GREAT comparison (from http://www.omaha.com/article/20100516/SPORTS/705159781 link posted herein).
Strange that I can't find that quote from Kirby in this thread anywhere.

Calling the big10 Betty White is a joke. Maybe OSU has struggled with the SEC, but other big10 teams have done just fine. And there's no way the PAC 10 is better.
May 19, 2010 2:11pm
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
May 19, 2010 2:14 PM
SnotBubbles wrote:
Posted by: kirby on 05/16/10 @ 10:49 am:

If the SEC is Angelina Jolie (every "Prettiest Girl" title goes thru her), the Pac 10 is Megan Fox (pretty but how deep is the talent?), and the Big 12 is, Insert "Big Blonde Texas Girl" here (verryy Texas), then the Big 10/11 is Betty White. Endearing, very old school but really not very exciting. I love Betty White, but shes not Maxim material. I hope we don't join the Betty White Conference.
LOL....that's actually a GREAT comparison (from http://www.omaha.com/article/20100516/SPORTS/705159781 link posted herein).
Sounds like the other conferences are getting their 15 minutes of fame, and Big Ten has been good for a century if you want to follow through with those comparisons.
May 19, 2010 2:14pm
B

bigkahuna

Senior Member

4,454 posts
May 19, 2010 2:36 PM
Al, I agree with you. There SHOULD be more criteria with expansion, but they are probably looking at these 3 things in no order.

1. Football
2. Men's Basketball
3. Academics

Also, I too think that there needs to be divisions not based soley on geographics in order for there to be some balance. Look at the NHL Chicago and Detroit are in the Western Division???
May 19, 2010 2:36pm
S

sjmvsfscs08

Senior Member

2,963 posts
May 19, 2010 3:28 PM
West Division
Illinois
Iowa
Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Northwestern
Wisconsin

East Division
Michigan
Michigan State
Notre Dame
Ohio State
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Purdue


Would be interesting.
May 19, 2010 3:28pm
H

hrspeedmerchant

Senior Member

165 posts
May 19, 2010 4:19 PM
thesystem wrote: http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/the-value-of-expansion-candidates-to-the-big-ten-network/


CANDIDATES TOTAL ADDED REVENUE ESTIMATE

Texas $101,369,004
Rutgers WITH NYC $67,798,609
Nebraska $54,487,990
Maryland $50,818,889
Boston College $48,382,692
Notre Dame $47,629,255
Kansas $46,320,092
Missouri $45,901,459
Syracuse $43,504,813
Connecticut $38,080,271
Pittsburgh $34,365,175
Iowa State $31,831,077

Syracuse WITH NYC $65,874,573
If the above estimates have any merit, it does support my contention that Pitt brings little to the table, revenue wise. They also don't add anything geographically. The thought of including Pitt should be dropped like a bad habit.

The Big Ten should pursue Rutgers, Notre Dame and Nebrasksa. Of course, this assumes that Texas is out of the picture.
May 19, 2010 4:19pm
N

Nate

Formerly Known As Keebler

3,949 posts
May 19, 2010 4:37 PM
sjmvsfscs08 wrote: West Division
Illinois
Iowa
Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Northwestern
Wisconsin

East Division
Michigan
Michigan State
Notre Dame
Ohio State
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Purdue


Would be interesting.
The West would be a cake walk while the East would be beating the snot out of each other. You could argue that the best 4 teams would be in the east.
May 19, 2010 4:37pm
B

bigkahuna

Senior Member

4,454 posts
May 19, 2010 4:48 PM
Like Al said, you are going to have one division better than the other unless you ignore Geography.

So....

Tradition (Charter/Oldest Members)
Illinois
Michigan
Minnesota
Northwestern
Purdue
Wisconsin
Iowa
OSU

Excellence
Penn State
Indiana
Michigan State
Missouri
Nebraska
Pitt
UCONN
Rutgers

Indiana was in the Big 10 before OSU, but OSU has more tradition than Indiana, but they could be flipped if it would make the league more balanced
May 19, 2010 4:48pm
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
May 19, 2010 5:13 PM
sjmvsfscs08 wrote: West Division
Illinois
Iowa
Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Northwestern
Wisconsin

East Division
Michigan
Michigan State
Notre Dame
Ohio State
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Purdue


Would be interesting.
I don't think Indiana would like that.
May 19, 2010 5:13pm
B

bigkahuna

Senior Member

4,454 posts
May 19, 2010 5:30 PM
Al Bundy wrote:
sjmvsfscs08 wrote: West Division
Illinois
Iowa
Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Northwestern
Wisconsin

East Division
Michigan
Michigan State
Notre Dame
Ohio State
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Purdue


Would be interesting.
I don't think Indiana would like that.
Ha, I just realized that
May 19, 2010 5:30pm
S

sjmvsfscs08

Senior Member

2,963 posts
May 19, 2010 10:35 PM
haha I meant Indiana instead if Nebraska.

It's funny, Indiana is that irrelevant. What about this? If teams are allowed 13 regular season games now, mandate nince conference games. Six against your division opponents and three against the other division, with one of those games permanent and the other two rotating.

X Division
Iowa
Missouri
Michigan State
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Penn State
Purdue

Y Division
Illinois
Indiana
Michigan
Minnesota
Ohio State
Pittsburgh
Wisconsin
May 19, 2010 10:35pm
krambman's avatar

krambman

Senior Member

3,606 posts
May 20, 2010 9:42 AM
sjmvsfscs08 wrote: haha I meant Indiana instead if Nebraska.

It's funny, Indiana is that irrelevant. What about this? If teams are allowed 13 regular season games now, mandate nince conference games. Six against your division opponents and three against the other division, with one of those games permanent and the other two rotating.
They aren't. They are allowed 12 regular season game and one post season conference championship game. Unless you play at Hawaii, then you are allowed an additional regular season home game to help cover the travel cost.
May 20, 2010 9:42am
S

Sonofanump

May 20, 2010 10:35 AM
They will go to 14 teams (Mizz, Neb, Rut) without Notre Dame, IF ND applies/accepts they will seek another school (Pitt, UConn, Syr) and go to 16.
May 20, 2010 10:35am