pinstriper wrote: Russell is a great player, but he'll never win the game. Richard Hatch is the only player ever to win because he was the "best player". The jury awarded him the money because he played the best. Ever since then, for 19 seasons, the jury awards the money based on relationships, social aspects, etc. The show is a huge social game, the challenges just help you get to a point of protection from being voted out or whatever. It's not about strategy when it comes down to the final jury votes, it's about who they bonded with, who they feel comfortable handing over a million dollars too, or who they want to screw over. That's why Russell will never win, this season or any other; too many people on that jury hate him, just as in Samoa.

I will agree that not every winner was the best player on that their season, but many were. I feel like you're equating best player with the winner of the most challenges. You yourself said that the social aspect of the game is as important if not more important than winning challenges. So even if a person who didn't win a single challenge wins the million, it doesn't mean that they weren't the best player because they could have played some amazing strategy and had an amazing social game. Winning challenges won't win you the million, winning people will. Being a great player means that you not only when challenges when necessary, manipulate to get people out when necessary, and build relationships to help you win. I think Russell is the greatest player ever on Survivor, but he's just not quite figured out that last aspect of being great yet.

And I would say that off the top of my head at Bob Crowley (Gabon) was definitely the best player (in every sense of the word) on his season and he won. I also think (off the top of my head) that Parvati, JT, Tom were the best players on the season that they won.

mattinctown wrote: I always wondered how Russell got on the cast of Heroes v. Villains when they hadn't even completed his original season yet.

As far as Sunday's episode, I don't think Russell will win. They could play the game 1,000 times and he would make the final 3 1,000 times, but probably wouldn't win any of them. He screws way too many people over and makes way too many enemies, and that is his downfall. I hope he gets runner up, that way we can see him get pissed off again at the finale, haha! I think Parvati should win, IMO, she's played a great game and hasn't cut many people's throats. If Sandra wouldn't have played the idol and then gotten voted off, it would have been one of the dumbest moves ever.

He got on Heroes vs Villians because his initial season had wrapped shooting well over a month before HvV started filming. None of his season had aired yet, but the producers knew what he had done and how they were going to edit the show and that whether or not people loved him or hated him, he would come off as one of the biggest villains ever. I think that fact that none of his season had aired before this one started filming gave him a big advantage. I think if everyone had seen him play, then he would have gotten voted out very early.

I also don't think there's a chance that Russell wins. I watch all of the Ponderosa webisodes about the jury members at their camp, and they all HATE Russell. I don't think there's anything he could do to earn even one jury vote.

I think that if he doesn't win I think that Parvati should because she played the best game next to him, but I think people hate her too and she's a former winner. Unfortunately I think Sandra will most likely win, or Jerri if she makes the finals.

Anybody else watching the finale? Crazy end to the final immunity, and then a little bit of a twist at the tribal council too.

krambman wrote:

pinstriper wrote: Russell is a great player, but he'll never win the game. Richard Hatch is the only player ever to win because he was the "best player". The jury awarded him the money because he played the best. Ever since then, for 19 seasons, the jury awards the money based on relationships, social aspects, etc. The show is a huge social game, the challenges just help you get to a point of protection from being voted out or whatever. It's not about strategy when it comes down to the final jury votes, it's about who they bonded with, who they feel comfortable handing over a million dollars too, or who they want to screw over. That's why Russell will never win, this season or any other; too many people on that jury hate him, just as in Samoa.

I will agree that not every winner was the best player on that their season, but many were. I feel like you're equating best player with the winner of the most challenges. You yourself said that the social aspect of the game is as important if not more important than winning challenges. So even if a person who didn't win a single challenge wins the million, it doesn't mean that they weren't the best player because they could have played some amazing strategy and had an amazing social game. Winning challenges won't win you the million, winning people will. Being a great player means that you not only when challenges when necessary, manipulate to get people out when necessary, and build relationships to help you win. I think Russell is the greatest player ever on Survivor, but he's just not quite figured out that last aspect of being great yet.

You mis-understood what I was saying. The first season is the only time someone was awarded the million dollars even though people despised him...it was based on game-play and respect. All the people you listed as great players were great players, but they were also liked by most of the jury members. The jury has ont, and will not award someone the title of SoleSurvivor because they played, they have to also not burn bridges. What I was trying to say is that there wil not be another season, and hasn't been since Hatch won, in which someone that is despised by the jury will still get the votes just because the jury respects thier game (strategy/social/dirty tricks/etc..). That's why Russell will never win. He probably was the best player this season, definately was last season, but he burns bridges...and the jury can't see past that. They did in Season 1.
*by the way, he was asked to do H v. V halfway through Samoa...and all the contestants knew what he was about before the show, they were "briefed" on his game-play during Samoa to make it fair...they were told he is one of the dirtiest players ever, biggest villians ever up to date, and thats why he's on H v. V - so they knew what he was bringing to the game.

So lame.

Well the worst player one. She couldnt even get anyone to vote of the person she despised, she couldnt win any challenges, and her alliance couldnt help her. You could easily have replaced her with Courtney had they drided to vote her off when they were choosing between the two. Bitter jurors are what makes this show end lackluster every year. Why not let the fans vote this would make it more interesting because some people love and hate each of these individuals. She says she didnt hide behind an immunity idol does everyone forget that she used it on the last day. As a fan if I had to vote i dunno who i would have voted for Parvarti or Russel. Each were stratigic and strong players. I give russel the advantage with strategy and Par with challenges.

Ha Russel just made my exact arguement at the end.

I would have been ok with Russel or Pavarti winning, but the jury rewarding a player who did nothing boggles my mind. Get over the fact that Russell hurt your pride and vote for the person that played the game. He had to play his butt off, as did Pavarti, to get to the final 3. Sandra didn't do anything.

I didn't like the fact that Sandra won, but she didn't hide behind the idol. The night she played it was the last tribal council it was allowed to be played, so why not play it? If she hadn't played it and been voted off, she would be one of the dumbest people ever.
I don't agree with her being the best Survivor ever, at all. IMO Parvati is the best ever. Why? Because if you combine all three aspects of the game...physical, social, gameplay...she is good at all of them. Russell really isn't very good in challenges, and clearly lacks the social game. He's probably the best ever at gameplay, but he will never be the best ever because he lacks in other areas. Like people said at the reunion, he does a great job to get to the final three, but he will never win it because of how he plays. Is he the dirtiest and meanest player ever? Probably. That doesn't mean he is the best ever. I'm glad he didn't win, but I thought Parvati should have won, she was a target from the beginning.

russell should have played the jury vote just like he played the game. he had the chance to win over some jury memebers(coach, jerri, danielle) if would have just acted like he was sorry even if he wasnt. sandra winning was a joke. at least america got it right and didnt let emotions play into it. fuckin rupert spewing his bullshit about playing the game right. he was the guy who stole items from the other team on the cook islands survivor. give me a break.

rupert was on pearl islands

cook, pearl . the pirate themed one.

BTW I hate Jeff Prost or whatever the hell his name is. He has one of the bigest egos I have ever seen.

i usually like probst but tonight he got pissed when russell said the people should have a say. and guess what, the people voted russell the best player.

But Probst was right in saying it is what it is.

Russell knew going in that he had to win over his peers in the game, and not the hearts of America if he wanted $1,000,000. He chose to do what he did anyway, twice.

that is true. thats why i dont know what the heck he was thinking when he didnt just say what some of the jury members wanted to hear. it would have been right up his alley and he would have probably won. anybody know what happens when there is a tie?

vball10set wrote: Parvati makes me want to vomit...Sandra's gonna' win this thing--just wait and see

Russell has always overestimated the idea that the jury would vote for who played the best rather than who they like the best.

The problems with Survivor in my mind are:

1. Bitter jury members who can't see past their own pride to identify the best player.

2. Three people going to the jury vote. Sandra won this year because she was the lesser of three evils. Too often the 3rd player who did nothing but ride coattails wins because the other two were the decision makers and made more enemies. Sandra basically admitted in her jury speech that she was a terrible player. She admitted to trying hard in challenges but being terrible at them, she admitted to not being able to accomplish anything when trying to influence votes, and she admitted that she has an abrasive personality (at the reunion show). By her own admission she is a terrible player. She has been fortunate (twice) to have other people at the vote that the jury simply had hard feelings against. If the vote was just Russell and Parvati...Russell would have had a chance.

3. Jeff Probst talks too much. He talked JT into his stupid move. Jeff actually talked up the idea of a women's alliance on the villains side while at a challenge. He steers conversations at tribal to expose things to players. He needs to shut his mouth and count votes.

4. Stupid challenges...STACKING PLATES?! You have to be kidding me. All chalenges should have a physical aspect (running around...whatever), a mental aspect (puzzles, riddles...) or both. A blind luck challenge is ridiculous. Why not just go with pick a number or high roll wins?

5. Too many hidden immunity idols. There should be one per side per game. Dont replace them after they have been played.

6. Predictability. Everyone knows there is a merge around 10 players. Everyone knows that you vote one off at tribal...why not have a season with no merge? Maybe a periodic two get voted off tribal council? Maybe you vote for two per ballot and whoever gets the most votes goes? Change it up a little.

The show is getting crazy in how often a crappy player wins.

By season:

1 - Richard Hatch = best player, deserved to win
2 - Tina Wesson = not a good player...Colby should have won
3 - Ethan Zohn = deserving of the win...there were others who could have...but he was probably the best choice.
4 - Vecepia Towery = awful...Rob Mariano was the best...several others could have won
5 - Brian Heidik = honestly...this season was awful and I almost stopped watching because of it
6 - Jenna Morasca = the best player that season...but overall not a very good player
7 - Sandra Diaz-Twine = as mentioned above...simply one of the worst PLAYERS ever...but one of the best at being in the right vote at the right time against the right players...best player was Jon Dalton, AKA Johnny Fairplay. He is the first to change the way the game was played. No one believes anything another player says because of his "dead grandma" routine.
8 - Amber Brkich = not the best player, but a good one. Again, Rob Mariano should have one...but in many ways, he did. He is the first to ever win the million by losing.
9 - Chris Daugherty = another awful season...the first one I ever missed an episode from and didn't bother to find a way to see it. I don't even remember this guy.
10 - Tom Westman = Stephanie should have won...she was a beast. Ian could have won as well...but Tom was deserving.
11 - Danni Boatwright = she was awful...Stephanie should have won...maybe Judd
12 - Aras Baskauskas = another bad season...Aras was OK...Terry should have won.
13 - Yul Kwon = best player won...had Ozzy just played a better mental game he would have gone down as the best player ever. He refused to be a strategist.
14 - Earl Cole = weak season number 3...no one should have won this season...a dead deer on the side of the road could have won this one. Yau Man should have at least been in the final vote.
15 - Todd Herzog = Amanda was by far the best player in this season. The fact that Courtney even made it to the vote should say how the show is turning around to the best players not being rewarded for playing the game.
16 - Parvati Shallow = (her last name says a lot by the way)...probably the right choice this season, but it was a pretty weak group of people brought back from previous seasons.
17 - Bob Crowley = an OK winner...Kenny was the best player of the season...one mistake and he was done.
18 - JT Thomas = probably the right choice...but Taj should have been there in the end.
19 = Natalie White = what a joke...Russell Hantz was clearly the best player
20 = Sandra Diaz-Twine = as mentioned before...luckiest player ever...Russell was #1, Parvati a close 2nd.

So I have it as 7-11-2...7 times in 20 seasons the best player won...11 times the best didnt, 2 times the season was so awful I can't even remember who won or lost and wahy.

As for the best ever...I still have to go with Russell (and coming into this season I didn't think that). What he did against a group of some of the best to ever play was unreal. I think he felt that all star players would look past relationships and reward him for making it to the end. In the end, the "bitter 9" just wouldn't reward the best player.

So Russell didn't get a single vote...but he did get millions of votes when the US population recognized him as the best player for the 2nd consecutive season.

My top 5:

Russell Hantz
Richard Hatch
Boston Rob
Yul Kwon
Parvati Shallow

I would agree with the "final 3" problem, as that played out both of the past two seasons. The worst of the 3 gets voted on because they just flew under the radar and the other 2 burnt some bridges.

I agree with the immunity idols too, to an extent. Even if they are put back into play, at least make it hard as hell to get them.

I'm not a huge Survivor fan, my wife is however.

So the last two seasons I've watched most of the episodes but never watched any Survivor before that.

So, I can't talk for "best ever", but there is no doubt Russell was the best player two seasons in a row and lost both times.

Big Brother is the same way at times, the jury votes for who they weren't pissed at instead of who was the better player.

I do think, by reading ksig's list, that BB might have done a better job (closer to 50/50) on who was the better player left in the finals actually winning.

BB1-best player left won (Eddie McGee)
BB2-best player left won (Will Kirby)
BB3-best player left lost (Lisa Donahue)
BB4-both players deserved it (Jun Song)
BB5-both players deserved it (Drew Daniel)
BB6-best player lost (Maggie Ausburn)
BB7-best player left won (Mike Malin)
BB8-best player left won (Dick Donato)
BB9-best player left lost (Adam Jasinski)
BB10-best player left won (Dan Gheesling)
BB11-neither player deserved it, the best players were eliminated just before finals (Jordan Lloyd)

So I'd say BB has got 6 of 11 "right" since I gave "half" for the two where I felt both finalists deserved it.

I personally still think the best player that has never won (Dr. Will and Dick were great players) was Eric, "America's Player" in season 8. To pull off half the crap America wanted him to do and still keep it "under wraps" was genius.

Great post ksig489!

jmog - I havent watched a ton of BB...first 2 seasons then season 11...I thought Jeff did enough to deserve the win. Jordan was awful...one of the dumbest people I have ever laid eyes on.

I like the interactions on BB...but I just dont like the format.

Funny though how the big villain on BB11 was also named Russell. I doubt there will be a whole lot of babies named Russell in the next few years!

Doesn't Russel look like Charles Manson? And the crazy thing is if you've ever heard a tape of Manson the little shit even sounds like him too.

ksig489 wrote: jmog - I havent watched a ton of BB...first 2 seasons then season 11...I thought Jeff did enough to deserve the win. Jordan was awful...one of the dumbest people I have ever laid eyes on.

I like the interactions on BB...but I just dont like the format.

Funny though how the big villain on BB11 was also named Russell. I doubt there will be a whole lot of babies named Russell in the next few years!

Jeff should have won, but he wasn't there in the final 2, it was the 2 biggest morons (Jordan and whatever the stinky girl's name was).

Jeff would have beat either of them in the final 2.

I liked Jordan, thought she was funny, but she didn't deserve to win at all.

great post ksig! ozzie is/was a great player. easy to root for and won challenges. they need to go back to what made the show great. one personal affect(no matches, flint, lighters), dont know when you are going to get "dropped off", no food unless you win it or fish for it, not so many idols. i liked it when you could spy on the ither camp for a day.

sportchampps wrote: She couldnt even get anyone to vote of the person she despised,

That's exactly what I said! Her "biggest move" was trying to vote out Russell, not once but four times, and she couldn't even DO IT! How in the hell can one call her the best Survivor of that season!?!?!