BoatShoes;1867038 wrote:Lol completely made up. I mean really did you just pull this out of your ass? Please provide evidence for this claim. To help you out Xavier Micah Johnson from the Dallas shooting was a member of the Houston Chapter of the New Black Panther Party and not BLM so you don't even get him.

Dylan Roof alone has murdered more people than any Black Lives Matter activists (and fwiw I don't think BLM's approach to activism is very effective at winning hearts and minds but again does not mean they are equivalent to freaking murderers! Is the world getting dumber???)

1. That was to get isadore riled up, not to be taken literally.
2. Can you really separate the New Black Panther member shooting in Dallas away from the BLM movement since the BLM movement and rallies in Dallas at the time?


FWIW, the Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, KKK, etc to me are the most despicable people on the planet (well, child molesters are worse, but you get the idea).

BLM, New Black Panthers, Antifa, are also racist in their core beliefs. They have honestly not got to the disgusting levels of the "old" KKK or "old" Nazis (Germany) quite obviously, but to act like they aren't racist as well is ignoring their own speeches and actions.

isadore;1867049 wrote:

Never "hated" him; simply disagreed, strongly, with just about every policy he pushed.



It is ironic how the so-called champions of diversity are busily attempting to squelch all diversity of thought, ideas and expression. Dangerous hypocrites.

Spock;1867051 wrote:I bet you are wrong.

it's a bet you would lose.

QuakerOats;1867054 wrote:Never "hated" him; simply disagreed, strongly, with just about every policy he pushed.



It is ironic how the so-called champions of diversity are busily attempting to squelch all diversity of thought, ideas and expression. Dangerous hypocrites.

jmog;1867050 wrote:I mean, if you want to take the last say 200 years, the far left wing socialists and communists have actually killed far more than Nazis and KKK (and it isn't even close)...but here I thought we were talking about the hear and now, not what happened nearly 100 years ago.

gosh BLM and the anti fa are not directly identified with communist party, stalin. mao, pol pot. Klan and Nazis tie directly to Hitler and the stars and bars.
n

isadore;1867059 wrote:gosh BLM and the anti fa are not directly identified with communist party, stalin. mao, pol pot. Klan and Nazis tie directly to Hitler and the stars and bars.
n

Seldom right and wrong again.

where?

Automatik;1866976 wrote:lol...Michael Moore. I won't bother clicking a link involving that fat turd.

Heretic;1866977 wrote:Yeah, listening to him is like listening to a douche like Hannity. You're leaving reality and entering the mind of a moron whose only true skill is creating his own brand out of political opinions.

You guys have to admit, though, this was fantastic!

[video=youtube;Ra_fAYl4Th4][/video]

isadore;1867064 wrote:where?

What do you think the hammer and sickle represent?

majorspark;1866964 wrote:Because we still saw them as brothers who went astray. Fellow countrymen gone astray that had to be brought back by force. Unlike most other civil wars in this world the rebel leaders were not executed or harshly treated when defeated. General Lee and many other confederate officers fought for the for the United States in the war in Mexico with honor.

The initial rebellion was in the deep south. Lincoln's calling on other states to raise arms against the deep south prompted other states to secede. There were constitutional concerns. A lot of loyal Union men wrestled with their decision. Imagine if the California secession movement were successful and Trump ordered arms to be taken up against them. I am a patriotic American who would fight and die for my country. But I would have a very hard time turning my gun on my fellow citizens. Many pro unionist found they could not do it. I do like your idea of adding context to some of the monuments.

It little historical context from the government of Virginia who ended up taking the brunt of the war.
http://www.nytimes.com/1861/04/22/news/gov-letcher-s-proclamation-his-reply-secretary-cameron-state-affairs-norfolk.html

I get that, trust me. I am a student of the civil war and love researching it. (I'm about to start Grant's Memoirs.) But, again, if the statues were all about the valor of the boys who fought maybe that is fine. If those statues are there, then add more information explaining why and how they fought and why they fought was ultimately wrong. However, most if not all, of the statues were erected in the 20th century as not to honor the boys who fought, but as a reminder of the power and myth of the old south: to support Jim Crow and segregation. They are also constant reminders of the old south and slavery/ Jim Crow. In a public square or park, that is not the reminder America needs.
I support taking down the statues from public squares and putting them in the proper context, either on civil war battlefields/ museums in the south already, cemeteries, or private lands.
This is not erasing history, just putting it where it belongs and in the proper context.

Again, I refer back to the NOLA Mayor's speech from May.,

"To literally put the Confederacy on a pedestal in our most prominent places of honor is an inaccurate recitation of our full past. It is an affront to our present, and it is a bad prescription for our future. History cannot be changed. It cannot be moved like a statue. What is done is done. The Civil War is over, and the Confederacy lost and we are better for it. Surely we are far enough removed from this dark time to acknowledge that the cause of the Confederacy was wrong....

...We have not erased history; we are becoming part of the city's history by righting the wrong image these monuments represent and crafting a better, more complete future for all our children and for future generations. And unlike when these Confederate monuments were first erected as symbols of white supremacy, we now have a chance to create not only new symbols, but to do it together, as one people. In our blessed land we all come to the table of democracy as equals. We have to reaffirm our commitment to a future where each citizen is guaranteed the uniquely American gifts of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/05/mayor_landrieu_speech_confeder.html

superman;1867070 wrote:What do you think the hammer and sickle represent?

but who are the marchers

Anyone naive enough to think these people will stop with a couple of confederate statues is sorely mistaken.

fish82;1867109 wrote:Anyone naive enough to think these people will stop with a couple of confederate statues is sorely mistaken.

maybe they can knock down some more traitor statutes.

fish82;1867109 wrote:Anyone naive enough to think these people will stop with a couple of confederate statues is sorely mistaken.

If they can knock God out of public places, they can do anything.

If they can take away the individual liberties of one person; they can take them away from anyone, or everyone.

isadore;1867110 wrote:maybe they can knock down some more traitor statutes.

LOL - reminds of an old USPS new employee orientation handbook we used to hand out - one section on legal issues had the misprinted phrase " ... in violation of federal statues ..... ". We had some of those rookies a little worred on their first day.

Oh wait - I just located another confederate statue being removed. We'll have every last vestige of racism erased in no time.

isadore;1867110 wrote:maybe they can knock down some more traitor statutes.

Like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? You're a moron if you think it is a good idea to take statues of founding Americans down.


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The South lost. Get over it.

isadore;1867108 wrote:but who are the marchers

Antifa

jmog;1867052 wrote:They have honestly not got to the disgusting levels of the "old" KKK or "old" Nazis (Germany) quite obviously, but to act like they aren't racist as well is ignoring their own speeches and actions.

I believe a fair case can be made that some of their conduct in the course of anti-racist action and advocacy can be perceived that way. After all, to paraphrase Justice Roberts - advocacy for positive race-based discrimination is still race-based discrimination. In any case while advocating for equality and the rectifications of perceived racial injustices is race-based advocacy, to paraphrase Mitt Romney's response to this latest incident, it is in a morally different universe than groups that advocate for the continued and/or future subjugation of certain racial groups.

So the point is that we can parse words about BLM being a race-based advocacy organization and while I don't think many of their proposals or tactics are very effective - they don't want to subjugate whites. They want equality with whites in what they perceive based on various experiences to be a society that is discriminatory toward people of color e.g. a popular example I've seen them use are people of color who are petty criminals and even licensed concealed carry holders being shot by police vs. Dylan Roof who murdered multiple people of color being arrested and given Burger King (that is just an example I recall a BLM activist speaking about on NPR one day).


And yes, Black Lives Matter is different than the New Black Panther Party.

Automatik;1867130 wrote:The South lost. Get over it.

Man, remember when Trump mocked McCain being a POW with his "I only like winners" comment. And now he's ranting about the removal of losers' statues.

Nothing I hate more than flip-floppers. Just the same as Hillary!

Sorry, that's not applicable now. FAKE NEWZ.

BoatShoes;1867142 wrote:I believe a fair case can be made that some of their conduct in the course of anti-racist action and advocacy can be perceived that way. After all, to paraphrase Justice Roberts - advocacy for positive race-based discrimination is still race-based discrimination. In any case while advocating for equality and the rectifications of perceived racial injustices is race-based advocacy, to paraphrase Mitt Romney's response to this latest incident, it is in a morally different universe than groups that advocate for the continued and/or future subjugation of certain racial groups.

So the point is that we can parse words about BLM being a race-based advocacy organization and while I don't think many of their proposals or tactics are very effective - they don't want to subjugate whites. They want equality with whites in what they perceive based on various experiences to be a society that is discriminatory toward people of color e.g. a popular example I've seen them use are people of color who are petty criminals and even licensed concealed carry holders being shot by police vs. Dylan Roof who murdered multiple people of color being arrested and given Burger King (that is just an example I recall a BLM activist speaking about on NPR one day).


And yes, Black Lives Matter is different than the New Black Panther Party.

I fundamentally disagree with you on this part.....and this is where BLM and lots of other race based groups differ from what Dr. MLK was all about.

He preached equality for all and non violence.

Absolutely not what is happening today.

iclfan2;1867129 wrote:Like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? You're a moron if you think it is a good idea to take statues of founding Americans down.


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George Washington and Thomas Jefferson weren't traitors. Moreover, Robert E. Lee himself opposed statues for Confederate icons and they were erected by racist Democrats in support of White Supremacy - not really to honor the specific men. And, even if they were, Germany doesn't have statutes for the heroic soldiers who fought for their Fatherland during the Third Reich.

But, with that being said, for what it's worth - I personally think the left focusing on taking down statues is a poor place to direct any political capital, that attempting to drown out offensive speech in public forums is antithetical to Liberalism and that if statutes are going to be taken down, they should be done via actions of local deliberative bodies and not mobs in the streets playing dress up.

wkfan;1867145 wrote:I fundamentally disagree with you on this part.....and this is where BLM and lots of other race based groups differ from what Dr. MLK was all about.

He preached equality for all and non violence.

Absolutely not what is happening today.

Here is a link to BLM's guiding principles.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

Much of it is too identitarian and kind of clouded in the language of modern liberal arts education that I find to be a bit annoying but I don't really see anything that might be interpreted as advocating for the subjugation of whites. Which ones of these principles do you think might be p.c. cover for desiring the subjugation of whites?

BoatShoes;1867142 wrote:I believe a fair case can be made that some of their conduct in the course of anti-racist action and advocacy can be perceived that way. After all, to paraphrase Justice Roberts - advocacy for positive race-based discrimination is still race-based discrimination. In any case while advocating for equality and the rectifications of perceived racial injustices is race-based advocacy, to paraphrase Mitt Romney's response to this latest incident, it is in a morally different universe than groups that advocate for the continued and/or future subjugation of certain racial groups.

So the point is that we can parse words about BLM being a race-based advocacy organization and while I don't think many of their proposals or tactics are very effective - they don't want to subjugate whites. They want equality with whites in what they perceive based on various experiences to be a society that is discriminatory toward people of color e.g. a popular example I've seen them use are people of color who are petty criminals and even licensed concealed carry holders being shot by police vs. Dylan Roof who murdered multiple people of color being arrested and given Burger King (that is just an example I recall a BLM activist speaking about on NPR one day).


And yes, Black Lives Matter is different than the New Black Panther Party.

Have you heard many of the chants during a BLM march/riot? How about the speeches?

I am sorry, but calling for killing cops, calling for killing whites, calling for "moving the violence from their neighborhood to the whites neighborhood, take the violence to them", if you can't see how that is bigoted and racist then you maybe beyond understanding.

Of course, their listed goals on their website list very watered down and more PC demands, but their actions typically speak louder than their stated goals.

Now, the KKK and Neo-Nazi's come right out and say on their websites/media/etc that they are racist so there is no question. BLM is just more sly about it until their emotions get out of control and their true views come out.

New Black Panther Party is obviously racist, not much debate there.