BoatShoes;1867147 wrote:George Washington and Thomas Jefferson weren't traitors. Moreover, Robert E. Lee himself opposed statues for Confederate icons and they were erected by racist Democrats in support of White Supremacy - not really to honor the specific men. And, even if they were, Germany doesn't have statutes for the heroic soldiers who fought for their Fatherland during the Third Reich.

But, with that being said, for what it's worth - I personally think the left focusing on taking down statues is a poor place to direct any political capital, that attempting to drown out offensive speech in public forums is antithetical to Liberalism and that if statutes are going to be taken down, they should be done via actions of local deliberative bodies and not mobs in the streets playing dress up.

superman;1867060 wrote:

Seldom right and wrong again.

BoatShoes;1867147 wrote:George Washington and Thomas Jefferson weren't traitors.

BoatShoes;1867151 wrote:Here is a link to BLM's guiding principles.

BoatShoes;1867156 wrote:There are elements of antifa that are overtly communist and other elements that - for whatever reason - believe what they perceive to be fascist right-wing speech should not even be permitted in public forums and attempt to use force and coercion at what they perceive to be fascist movements. To paraphrase Eisenhower, in both cases, their numbers are small and they are stupid.

One negative element of this media coverage of the event is that you could get the impression that America is just swarming with very extreme individuals on both the right and the left when these groups are very small and very fringe but their zeal makes them seem larger than they are through relentless online trolling etc. and never ending media coverage.

jmog;1867155 wrote:I agree that most of the statues were erected by racist democrats in the long past decades of Jim Crow, etc.

The one statue/person I have actual read a lot of biographies on and how he acted/believed was General Lee.

Short version:
He was a general in the US Army.
He severely struggled with joining Virginia and therefore the Confederate Army. He actually held abolitionist views, he truly believed that eventually the South would abolish slavery as well.
His one belief that overshadowed his love for the USA, was that he believed in States rights above the Federal Government. That led him to join the Virginia Army and by proxy Confederate Army.

By everything I have read Lee was actually a good man, believed slavery should end, but just happened to love Virginia more than the USA.

He was definitely in the minority when it comes to the officers and elected officials in the south (Jefferson Davis, et al). You can obviously see that in all of their secession letters since they all (going off memory) listed slavery as their main reason for secession. Some kind of listed States Rights as a secondary reason, but slavery was the obvious take away from every states secession letter.


H

jmog;1867162 wrote:100% true, and the bolded line is actually a rather communist belief, even if they don't realize it.

Force and coercion to stop speech they don't agree with? Right up there in the communist manifesto.

BoatShoes;1867151 wrote:Here is a link to BLM's guiding principles.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

Much of it is too identitarian and kind of clouded in the language of modern liberal arts education that I find to be a bit annoying but I don't really see anything that might be interpreted as advocating for the subjugation of whites. Which ones of these principles do you think might be p.c. cover for desiring the subjugation of whites?

BoatShoes;1867156 wrote:There are elements of antifa that are overtly communist and other elements that - for whatever reason - believe what they perceive to be fascist right-wing speech should not even be permitted in public forums and attempt to use force and coercion at what they perceive to be fascist movements. To paraphrase Eisenhower, in both cases, their numbers are small and they are stupid.

One negative element of this media coverage of the event is that you could get the impression that America is just swarming with very extreme individuals on both the right and the left when these groups are very small and very fringe but their zeal makes them seem larger than they are through relentless online trolling etc. and never ending media coverage.

iclfan2;1867129 wrote:Like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? You're a moron if you think it is a good idea to take statues of founding Americans down.


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superman;1867141 wrote:Antifa

isadore;1867185 wrote:source?

jmog;1867155 wrote:I agree that most of the statues were erected by racist democrats in the long past decades of Jim Crow, etc.

The one statue/person I have actual read a lot of biographies on and how he acted/believed was General Lee.

Short version:
He was a general in the US Army.
He severely struggled with joining Virginia and therefore the Confederate Army. He actually held abolitionist views, he truly believed that eventually the South would abolish slavery as well.
His one belief that overshadowed his love for the USA, was that he believed in States rights above the Federal Government. That led him to join the Virginia Army and by proxy Confederate Army.

By everything I have read Lee was actually a good man, believed slavery should end, but just happened to love Virginia more than the USA.

He was definitely in the minority when it comes to the officers and elected officials in the south (Jefferson Davis, et al). You can obviously see that in all of their secession letters since they all (going off memory) listed slavery as their main reason for secession. Some kind of listed States Rights as a secondary reason, but slavery was the obvious take away from every states secession letter.


H

iclfan2;1867129 wrote:Like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? You're a moron if you think it is a good idea to take statues of founding Americans down.


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superman;1867187 wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/08/16/who-are-the-antifa/?utm_term=.5d9359e725e7

Even the Wah compost admits they are communists.

O-Trap;1867191 wrote:Lee and Stonewall Jackson weren't founders, though. Is it cool if we take those down, particularly since most of them weren't even there before 1960?

isadore;1867194 wrote:1. source to picture you used. 2. The article does not say anti fa are communists, it says some are.

isadore;1867194 wrote:1. source to picture you used. 2. The article does not say anti fa are communists, it says some are.

iclfan2;1867198 wrote:Even if they aren't all communists (which they are), they're a bunch of criminals. Did you see Berkeley? Half the time they are arguing against normal republican people (Milo is an outlier, but still dumb as hell). You can't be anti-fascist when there are only like 2,000 fascists in general. They can't consider all republican speech fascist, that just makes them retards.


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superman;1867196 wrote:You really don't know how to use Google do you?

isadore;1867188 wrote: The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.
— Robert E. Lee, to Mary Anna Lee, December 27, 1856

"In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence."

iclfan2;1867198 wrote:Even if they aren't all communists (which they are), they're a bunch of criminals. Did you see Berkeley? Half the time they are arguing against normal republican people (Milo is an outlier, but still dumb as hell). You can't be anti-fascist when there are only like 2,000 fascists in general. They can't consider all republican speech fascist, that just makes them retards.

iclfan2;1867195 wrote:Not sure what you are referring to. My quote was into response that they won't stop at just confederate statues (like people are already bitching about). Isidore said yea more traitors, but not sure who he was referring to since it was above and beyond confederates.


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jmog;1867207 wrote:You obviously/purposefully edited that quote...let's look at the whole quote in the letter he wrote to his wife...


He said slavery is a moral and political evil. He said that it is a greater evil to the white men who own the slaves that it is to the black men because of how morally corrupt it shows the white men to be.

You should really know what you are talking about before posting, I actually have read that whole letter he wrote his wife in one of his biographies.

jmog;1867207 wrote:You obviously/purposefully edited that quote...let's look at the whole quote in the letter he wrote to his wife...


He said slavery is a moral and political evil. He said that it is a greater evil to the white men who own the slaves that it is to the black men because of how morally corrupt it shows the white men to be.

You should really know what you are talking about before posting, I actually have read that whole letter he wrote his wife in one of his biographies.

isadore;1867204 wrote:1. while you claim they are all communist, the best evidence so far presented does not support that claim. 2. There are more than 2000 fascist in America 3. Even if there were only 2000, they should still be opposed.