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War On Christmas

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ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 24, 2009 10:45 AM
One where we have actual freedom to do and say what we want, and not worry about whether or not we are offending someone. If we are, then fisticuffs.
Nov 24, 2009 10:45am
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Nov 24, 2009 10:50 AM
YAYYY!!! Fisticuffs!!!!
Nov 24, 2009 10:50am
B

BCSbunk

Senior Member

972 posts
Nov 24, 2009 10:54 AM
majorspark wrote:
BCSbunk wrote:Dogma a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without empirical proof.

Follow To take as a model or precedent. is the context of follow in my assertion.

So in other words. The display is proclaimed as true without empirical proof as a model.
Bunk has succesfully put up a strawman arguement that has diverted the discussion to the definition of dogma. He fails to prove how the 1st amendment gives the federal government power to regulate displays on local city squares.
So it is okay for Satanists to display what they want? They are a recognized religion here in the US. You have no problem if the Government starting putting up Satanic displays? Upside down crosses, Reverse NS' where they are all dead etc.?
Yes it would be if you can find a local community that would allow it to be displayed.
Well the 14th amendment would allow it. You do not need the communities permission to allow it.

If all religions are represented I have no problem with it. For me it is all or none and does not matter to me as long as one or a few religions are given precedent over others. However that is not what is happening. Christians protest when atheists put up nonreligious displays beside their NS's
Nov 24, 2009 10:54am
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Nov 24, 2009 10:56 AM
BCSbunk wrote:Please show where I have used a strawman. If you want to call it a red herring that is fine, but I needed to clarify because another poster stated that they did not understand so I tried to accomodate.

It is not only the 1st amendment. The 14th amendment works with the 1st amendment with regard to religious displays.

Seperation of church and state is comprised of both the 1st amendment and the 14th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States
I am not going to get into an arguement of semantics. Red Herring fits the bill.

You can refer to my arguement in post #28. The federal governments role is clear.
Nov 24, 2009 10:56am
M

MrTrackMski

Junior Member

22 posts
Nov 24, 2009 11:14 AM
If one wishes me "Happy Holidays", fine. I will say "Merry Christmas" and say it with love. I am remembering the "reason for the season". It is a season dealing with a birth that deals with love.

BUT: that being said, much of today's CHRISTmas has nothing to do with this very special "BIRTH day".

Show me in the Bible "Frosty the Snowman" and Parsons Brown.
Or a fat jolly man dressed in red coming down some smoking device.
Or a red nose critter flying through the air with a bunch of other critters pulling the said fat man.
Show me the CHRISTmas tree in the Bible.
Other examples could be used to further make the point.

The season deals with a very special birth, not fat people, trees, snow turned into people, etc.

So in many ways, some (not all) people celebrate Christmas for that fat man, those deer, that snow man, and of course the countless expensive gifts that they demand to be given. They honor those gifts, etc.rather than that very, special birthday.

BAH HUMBUG!
Nov 24, 2009 11:14am
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Nov 24, 2009 11:23 AM
BCSbunk wrote:Well the 14th amendment would allow it. You do not need the communities permission to allow it.
Please elaborate.
If all religions are represented I have no problem with it. For me it is all or none and does not matter to me as long as one or a few religions are given precedent over others. However that is not what is happening. Christians protest when atheists put up nonreligious displays beside their NS's
So because all religions may not be represented in certain local communities, you are ok with the federal government forcing atheism on the whole community because one religion may be favored over another by the locals.
Nov 24, 2009 11:23am
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Nov 24, 2009 11:31 AM
Government just needs to stay out of it.
Nov 24, 2009 11:31am
2

2trap_4ever

Member

38 posts
Nov 24, 2009 11:39 AM
Why is this such a hot button issue, there is more going on in this world that is a lot scarier than a plastic version of baby Jesus, if you don't want to look at it then close your eyes as you pass or look the other way, why is it in this country the minority controls the majority on issues like this.
Nov 24, 2009 11:39am
Strapping Young Lad's avatar

Strapping Young Lad

Senior Member

2,453 posts
Nov 24, 2009 2:50 PM
believer wrote:
Strapping Young Lad wrote:I have a problem w/ a nativity scene on a courthouse lawn, but b/c it assumes that everyone served by the courthouse is a christian...If you think the melting pot idea is a positive one that you want to represent your country, then you've got to take everyone's religious affiliation into consideration, or not at all....
It's interesting how "melting pot" is invoked when it comes to - say - the "offensive" display of a Nativity scene on a courthouse lawn. But if it's "multicultural day" or Black History Month being celebrated in our public schools, for example, WELL, that's a whole different matter isn't it?

If we're a "melting pot" then so be it. Eliminate ALL celebration of our differences and beliefs in ALL of our public institutions and then I'm on board.

If not, then if I want to display a Nativity scene, Menorah, Kwanzaa paraphernalia, or Muslim artifacts on the courthouse lawn why not simply look at it as a celebration of our diversity rather than seeing it as offensive?

The hypocrisy of the left never ceases to amaze me.
I don't have a problem w/ the nativity scene on gov't property, as long as the other religions who celebrate their holidays at this time of year are included in the decoration also.....I think it's only fair.

I'm certainly not offended by religious displays....I am offended by the idea that other religions and traditions shouldn't be recognized (Jews, whoever it is that celebrates the other holidays at this time) also...

And I'm all for other types of history being celebrated throughout the year, too, not just black history....Jewish ppl who made significant contributions to our history, germans, italians, irish, etc. Why not???? I wouldn't have any problem with that.
Nov 24, 2009 2:50pm
Websurfinbird's avatar

Websurfinbird

Chosen Person

656 posts
Nov 24, 2009 3:17 PM
Since I'm clearly one of maybe a handful of Jewish people on this site, I thought I'd weigh in.

Unless you are not a Christian, it can be very hard to understand how "in your face" all the Christmas stuff can be. Now, I completely get that most people in this country celebrate Christmas, and it has become more of a secular holiday. Funnily enough, it was the mostly Jewish department store owners who pushed the idea of Christmas as a consumer holiday.

As I child it was hard for me to be the only Jewish person in my entire PUBLIC elementary school during the holidays. There was a lot of Christmas stuff forced upon me (art, music, etc.). I think at one point they decided to include Channukah songs in the holiday show, but I felt that was just to placate people like me.

I'm not trying to ruin the holiday fun. But singing a song like "Silent Night," a VERY religious song, at a public school for example, is inappropriate.

Finally, I want people to understand that Channukah, was and never will be, as important of a holiday to Jews as Christmas is to Christians, and trying to equate the two is wrong.
Nov 24, 2009 3:17pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 24, 2009 3:27 PM
Very well said WSB. Puts a lot of it into perspective.

Can we have a satanist give their side now? Justin Incredible... care to share? :D
Nov 24, 2009 3:27pm
Cleveland Buck's avatar

Cleveland Buck

Troll Hunter

5,126 posts
Nov 24, 2009 3:31 PM
You didn't call him Justin Incredible. I'm disappointed.
Nov 24, 2009 3:31pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Nov 24, 2009 4:25 PM
I don't care if other symbols of religion are put on display during the holidays or whenever. The thing is, holidays are about people not government. At least, it is supposed to be that way here in America. But our government really thinks it has to have a say in everything, and so far, we've bought into that train of thought - and gov. likes that response, or lack thereof.
Nov 24, 2009 4:25pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 24, 2009 4:43 PM
Cleveland Buck wrote: You didn't call him Justin Incredible. I'm disappointed.
Fixed :D
Nov 24, 2009 4:43pm
B

BCSbunk

Senior Member

972 posts
Nov 24, 2009 5:25 PM
majorspark wrote:
BCSbunk wrote:Well the 14th amendment would allow it. You do not need the communities permission to allow it.
Please elaborate.
If all religions are represented I have no problem with it. For me it is all or none and does not matter to me as long as one or a few religions are given precedent over others. However that is not what is happening. Christians protest when atheists put up nonreligious displays beside their NS's
So because all religions may not be represented in certain local communities, you are ok with the federal government forcing atheism on the whole community because one religion may be favored over another by the locals.
The government is not forcing atheism you are free to have your religion that is what the establishment clause is all about.

You are free to have your religion and others are free to not have it or have its government endorse it.

The incorporation doctrine resulted from the 14th amendment. I cannot write that much so I will leave it up to you to do research. It is a very lengthy topic with lots of SC rulings. In a small nutshell States must obey the same rules as the Federal government but that is a simplification.

This would mean that the community has no authority to "allow it"

If Satanists wished to put things up as long as there was other religious themed items they would be permitted.
Nov 24, 2009 5:25pm
U

unique_67

Senior Member

167 posts
Nov 24, 2009 5:38 PM
There is not a war on Christmas, and it get's nauseating hearing this blabber every year at this time.
Nov 24, 2009 5:38pm
C

cbus4life

Ignorant

2,849 posts
Nov 24, 2009 5:45 PM
unique_67 wrote: There is not a war on Christmas, and it get's nauseating hearing this blabber every year at this time.
Agreed.
Nov 24, 2009 5:45pm
Strapping Young Lad's avatar

Strapping Young Lad

Senior Member

2,453 posts
Nov 24, 2009 6:51 PM
cbus4life wrote:
unique_67 wrote: There is not a war on Christmas, and it get's nauseating hearing this blabber every year at this time.
Agreed.
Tell that to Glenn Beck and his cronies...
Nov 24, 2009 6:51pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Nov 24, 2009 7:44 PM
Strapping Young Lad wrote:
cbus4life wrote:
unique_67 wrote: There is not a war on Christmas, and it get's nauseating hearing this blabber every year at this time.
Agreed.
Tell that to Glenn Beck and his cronies...


I dare you to tell that to Sarah Palin! :D
Nov 24, 2009 7:44pm
T

Timber

Senior Member

935 posts
Nov 24, 2009 9:52 PM
Running a business today, one can not afford to offend any customers (I owe that to the owner of the store), period. So if I do not have a relational bridge built with a customer (knowing whether or not they are Christians) I simply say... "Happy Holidays" If the customer responds with a Merry Christmas, I most certainly respond back with a Merry Christmas myself. I am not a big fan of all of the PC, but i am all about a successful business :)

If I am the one doing the shopping or walking down the street, I most certainly will say Merry Christmas first. I do not care if I offend anyone away from work.
Nov 24, 2009 9:52pm
U

unique_67

Senior Member

167 posts
Nov 25, 2009 1:01 AM
LOL at CenterBHS :)
Nov 25, 2009 1:01am
U

Upper90

Senior Member

1,095 posts
Nov 25, 2009 1:09 AM
I'm Muslim, don't celebrate Christmas, and never have, and I can relate to Websurfinbird, at least as far as growing up with it.

Now, I don't think I care much at all either way. If someone says "Merry Christmas" to me, I wish them and their family the same, I'll scope out the lights, and I'll NO DOUBT take some unsuspecting date to the downtown nativity scene to try and score an inappropriate makeout session in front of a family of 5, or more.



Last part was a joke. You get the point.
Nov 25, 2009 1:09am
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Nov 25, 2009 1:42 AM
Upper90 wrote: I'm Muslim, don't celebrate Christmas, and never have, and I can relate to Websurfinbird, at least as far as growing up with it.

Now, I don't think I care much at all either way. If someone says "Merry Christmas" to me, I wish them and their family the same, I'll scope out the lights, and I'll NO DOUBT take some unsuspecting date to the downtown nativity scene to try and score an inappropriate makeout session in front of a family of 5, or more.



Last part was a joke. You get the point.
I everyone had your attitude this would not be an issue. This is how it should be.
Nov 25, 2009 1:42am
Strapping Young Lad's avatar

Strapping Young Lad

Senior Member

2,453 posts
Nov 25, 2009 10:55 AM
No snow we go! wrote: Running a business today, one can not afford to offend any customers (I owe that to the owner of the store), period. So if I do not have a relational bridge built with a customer (knowing whether or not they are Christians) I simply say... "Happy Holidays" If the customer responds with a Merry Christmas, I most certainly respond back with a Merry Christmas myself. I am not a big fan of all of the PC, but i am all about a successful business :)

If I am the one doing the shopping or walking down the street, I most certainly will say Merry Christmas first. I do not care if I offend anyone away from work.
I believe this is how conservatives began to percieve the "war" in the first place....Wal-mart greeters saying happy holidays, not Merry X-mas. And it was a business decision and nothing more...

Should've been left at that....

But not for Glenn Beck, Ann Coulter and co. To them it was a Liberal attack on Jesus Christ, lord and savior.
Nov 25, 2009 10:55am