posted by queencitybuckeye

I don't care what people say (polls), and firmly believe that people often vote against their best interests in favor of shit like "my family's always voted for the ____________ ".

Yeah I don’t disagree with that. I think that’s why people “identify” as conservative or liberal too when they usually aren’t either. 

If a pollster asks "Wouldn't you like to see the poorest of our citizens to receive the healthcare they need?" almost all people would say yes.

If that same pollster asks "Would you be willing to pay 30%+  more in taxes to see that happen?", then that changes everything.

It's a no-brainer that many of the big cities and college towns will almost always answer yes to both questions. The biggest reason for that, in my opinion, is because of the differences that having 30%+ less of a paycheck makes between a renter and an owner.

posted by CenterBHSFan

If a pollster asks "Wouldn't you like to see the poorest of our citizens to receive the healthcare they need?" almost all people would say yes.

If that same pollster asks "Would you be willing to pay 30%+  more in taxes to see that happen?", then that changes everything.

It's a no-brainer that many of the big cities and college towns will almost always answer yes to both questions. The biggest reason for that, in my opinion, is because of the differences that having 30%+ less of a paycheck makes between a renter and an owner.

I haven’t seen 30% anywhere tbh. Senate republicans estimate 20%  Bernie estimates 7.5%. I’d Imagine the truth is somewhere in between.  

I wonder what percentage most people pay right now between premiums, copays, and medical bills? 

I also wonder what the savings to companies who subsidize employees premiums would mean to them? 

posted by kizer permanente

I haven’t seen 30% anywhere tbh.

It's probably pretty close, on average, if you look at cost of living.  And if you just consider renting in a "big city" vs. owning in the red state suburbs, 30% probably isn't far off the mark as that's the % of your mortgage going to equity.

And taxes in NY and CA are absolutely obscene, on top of grossly inflated housing prices.  Those state economies are in a bubble, and eventually they'll pop.

posted by Fab4Runner

Off the rails lol? It appears he's trying to have a civil discussion and you're calling him a dumb, idiotic troll. 

Maybe you missed his statement that no Republican would ever win an election if not for the EC and gerrymandering. 

That is a statement that is from someone who is completely ignorant of how our system of government works, or is off the rails.

The senate for starters has nothing to do with the EC and you can’t gerrymander whole states so the fact that the senate has been lead by the Rs  since 2014 alone proves his statement asinine.

HoR seats have been gerrymandered and it is really wrong. The problem is that both sides have done this and there is no proof the Rs have benefited more than the Ds due to it.

So yes, his original statement was either off the rails or he is completely ignorant as to how our elections and government operate.

posted by kizer permanente

Sure... I’m interested to see why people feel the US is center-right. It doesn’t appear to be if you believe polling on policy. If you don’t, I guess I get that. 

Most of us tend to believe people know who they are  So when polling shows people say they are conservative at higher rates than they are liberal. 

That is valid evidence that the country is center-right.

posted by kizer permanente

If you go by pure population there’s no question the country is center-left.

I tend to agree.  But group-think plays a huge role in that (a big reason why the big cities are so liberal).

Still, I'd quote Gary Johnson: "most of the country is Libertarian, they just don't know it".  I tend to agree - most people are socially liberal, tolerant and accepting...and I think most people are for lower taxes, smaller govt and less regulation.

The really big issues, if we're going put people on the left or right, would seem to be free healthcare and free college.  And I'd suggest that isn't an indicator someone is liberal or conservative but simply whether they'd be a net beneficiary or net payer.

Climate change is another interesting question.  But I'd argue the people for whom that really matters, with respect to a vote, is small.

I'm not sure how you measure it.  It's extremely difficult to even set up an unbiased experiment.  What beliefs are truly left or right beyond the most obvious?  And then how do you ask the question without influencing the results?

posted by jmog

Congratulations on becoming the antithesis of QO on this board, someone who spews non-sense, just in your case from the left.

Flagrant foul

posted by gut

I tend to agree.  But group-think plays a huge role in that (a big reason why the big cities are so liberal).

Still, I'd quote Gary Johnson: "most of the country is Libertarian, they just don't know it".  I tend to agree - most people are socially liberal, tolerant and accepting...and I think most people are for lower taxes, smaller govt and less regulation.

The really big issues, if we're going put people on the left or right, would seem to be free healthcare and free college.  And I'd suggest that isn't an indicator someone is liberal or conservative but simply whether they'd be a net beneficiary or net payer.

Climate change is another interesting question.  But I'd argue the people for whom that really matters, with respect to a vote, is small.

I'm not sure how you measure it.  It's extremely difficult to even set up an unbiased experiment.  What beliefs are truly left or right beyond the most obvious?  And then how do you ask the question without influencing the results?

I don’t think you’re wrong but I also think people are only libertarian bc they can enjoy what’s already been given to them by Dems and republicans. I can’t see how libertarianism can exist especially in a country the size of ours and the problems we face. And we can’t point to anywhere else bc it doesn’t exist as a system to point to success or failure. 

I mean, the country was founded in the classical liberal tradition, which is more or less libertarianism.

posted by justincredible

I mean, the country was founded in the classical liberal tradition, which is more or less libertarianism.

This I agree 100%. 

Sorry my rights are not given to me by Dems and republicans.

It’s more than your rights though. It’s the actual country you live in. Is the benefits you experience by living here versus a third world country. And the quality of life you’re able to live bc you’re lucky enough to be here in a wealthy country an not somewhere else. 

posted by justincredible

I mean, the country was founded in the classical liberal tradition, which is more or less libertarianism.

Absolutely.. I’d say the country is a tiny bit different than when it was founded though right ? Population and demographically?

posted by kizer permanente

Absolutely.. I’d say the country is a tiny bit different than when it was founded though right ? Population and demographically?

I'd argue that doesn't matter in the slightest when it comes to the federal government. States have always had a large amount of sovereignty to run their affairs as they saw fit. Why should one city be calling the shots for a vast country made up of 400 million people with a large number of different cultures within it?

I am not at all opposed of local governance. Cities can operate in a way that makes sense for the locals. Same with states. But a massive federal government calling the shots in a country like this will never make sense to me. It would be one thing if we had a homogeneous culture, but we definitely do not. 

People like to point to other countries like Sweden or wherever, saying if they can do it, we can do it. But when you compare population and culture it just doesn't make sense. Sweden has 10 million residents. That's smaller than Ohio.

posted by justincredible

I'd argue that doesn't matter in the slightest when it comes to the federal government. States have always had a large amount of sovereignty to run their affairs as they saw fit. Why should one city be calling the shots for a vast country made up of 400 million people with a large number of different cultures within it?

I’d argue though that it absolutely matters though when you don’t live in a small homogeneous society though.  The tenets of libertarianism seems to be small/no government. Person rights. And don’t tax me. So either we have to pretend poor people don’t exist and don’t need help, or private industry needs to take care of them. The issue with that is history shows humans exploit other humans, not help them.  

Well, I know locally our private business do a lot of work for the underprivileged. Like, a fuckton of work. My company alone has too many charitable connections to even begin to list. I tend to think humanity is good and getting better. People are generally good and will help out those that need it.

posted by justincredible

Well, I know locally our private business do a lot of work for the underprivileged. Like, a fuckton of work. My company alone has too many charitable connections to even begin to list. I tend to think humanity is good and getting better. People are generally good and will help out those that need it.

Yeah but they’ll also enslave people and make them work in terrible conditions if left unchecked too. That’s not people being generally good. I’m not sure we can really say people are generally good? 

posted by kizer permanente

Yeah but they’ll also enslave people and make them work in terrible conditions if left unchecked too.

And only a massive federal government can fix this. 

Did you not see my local governance post?

posted by justincredible

And only a massive federal government can fix this. 

Did you not see my local governance post?

I mean, typically for massive size countries. 

 Like you said, we’re not Sweden. And also, were the United States. No 50 different countries. I’m not sure how effective a small federal government would be over 50 different states with 400 mil people.  

posted by kizer permanente

I mean, typically for massive size countries. 

 Like you said, we’re not Sweden. And also, were the United States. No 50 different countries. I’m not sure how effective a small federal government would be over 50 different states with 400 mil people.  

Exactly. STATES. Plural. 

Given that we clearly have fundamental disagreements here I'm going to move on to more fruitful endeavors.

posted by justincredible

Exactly. STATES. Plural. 

Given that we clearly have fundamental disagreements here I'm going to move on to more fruitful endeavors.

posted by kizer permanente

No problem.  Thanks for trying to educate me on your view of Libertarianism. I only have 1 close libertarian friend and I don’t think he’s a true libertarian. He just doesn’t like being taxed. 

I appreciate the civility. I enjoy discussing with others, but at a certain point I tend to bow out. All of our good friends in Cincinnati are borderline socialists so it can be tough for my wife and I. 

posted by justincredible

I appreciate the civility. I enjoy discussing with others, but at a certain point I tend to bow out. All of our good friends in Cincinnati are borderline socialists so it can be tough for my wife and I. 

I mean... I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know everything. I admit on here all the time when I’m dumb and fucked up. Talking to people who don’t  think like you generally results in learning something new for me.