Al Bundy;1742424 wrote:Someone being underemployed/unemployed for a short period of time is a lot different than a 52 year old working the same entry level position for 30 years. Anyway can go through a rough period for a short period of time, but if it goes on for 30 years, that person may need to take a look in the mirror. Even if he wants to stay at Subway, why not show the initiative to work up into management to get the higher wage?

Maybe he just is not that talented? Maybe he is not,cut out for management? There are people in my family's business who have worked low wage jobs for us for years and they simply will never be managers even if they left for somewhere else. But they are good and honorable people who go to work every day asking not what their country can do for them but what they can do for their families and their country.

And, how do you know he has not shown initiative and been denied?

When it is so easy to give up and call binder and binder and try for disability we should be thankful that this man is as honorable as he is.

HitsRus;1742423 wrote:I'm all ears...explain how the economics is going to work, both on a micro and macro scale.

On a Macro scale all things being equal higher wages across the income scale means higher unemployment. Indeed the failure of the free market to readily adjust wages downward is one of the primary causes of unemployment because people have money illusion. Many firms also think if they pay lower wages then they are getting a shitty employee.

The legal profession is a prime example. It was rocked by the financial crisis and wages should have dropped substantially but they only dropped a little as there was a bias that reducing wages meant less prestige.

And from the typical progressive viewpoint (which I do not share as I prefer full employment) even if higher wages result in higher unemployment that is morally ok so long as thwre is a sufficiently generous welfare state.

So, Bernie Sanders might think "wage-slavery" as the southerners used to call it when they defended chattel slavery is just as morally wrong as chattel slavery.

In his mind nobody should work for a age that does not allow for X standard of living. Of course this means more people cannot get jobs and their,wage is zero.

However, a progressive like bernie sanders is ok with people having a wage of zero so long as they have X standard of living supported by the welfare state.

In this,sort of economy you probably have slower economic growth like the nordic countries but progressives believe that is ok because you have higher life satisfaction across the income scale.

I believe this type of economy is next to impossible to achieve in the United States because we believe in the capitalist ethic "thou shalt earn thy bread with sweat" and millions would object to a generous welfare state.

I propose an Employer of Last Resort through non-profit charities and,churches as it complies with the capitalist ethic and requires fewer resources than a generous welfare state and does not generate Sleeper-style animosity toward the least well off.

BoatShoes;1742439 wrote:Maybe he just is not that talented? Maybe he is not,cut out for management? There are people in my family's business who have worked low wage jobs for us for years and they simply will never be managers even if they left for somewhere else. But they are good and honorable people who go to work every day asking not what their country can do for them but what they can do for their families and their country.

And, how do you know he has not shown initiative and been denied?

When it is so easy to give up and call binder and binder and try for disability we should be thankful that this man is as honorable as he is.

with the sounds of John Lennon's Imagine playing in the blackground......

People that oppose this are not necessarly bad people either. There should be real concern about the inescapable loss of jobs and rising prices that this will entail. The money to pay low skilled labor $3,4, 5,6, 7/an hour more is going to have to paid by somebody. Let's not forget the increase in payroll taxes that will cost the business, nor the cost of pushing people into higher tax brackets, loss of earned income credit etc.

sleeper;1742432 wrote:I'm actually very happy with how my life has turned out. What I don't like is people who whine and complain about their own failures and want to blame others. Also known as Democrats, aka trash of the Earth.

gosh a ruddies that commentary just reflects the self hating poison eating up your soul, get some therapy.

BoatShoes;1742416 wrote:Given this reality, a 50 year old man who continues to plug along contributing to our country in a job where people view him like Sleeper does rather than an honorable human being whose life and product has value, he deserves our praise.

He is a working class hero and one hell of a model American.

This guy has had over 30 yrs as an able bodied individual to bring value to an employer that is offering something other than an entry level job. There are plenty of jobs out there above minimum wage that aren't management and require a low level of skill. Also it is his choice to live in NYC is it not? If making subs is the only thing this guy can do why not move? There a dozen or so subways within 50 miles of where I live and that $1300 dollar rent he is paying could be cut by more than half. Obviously the guy could be worse and be sitting on his ass on welfare. What this "model" American wants is however is to continue living where he is at, make no attempt to improve his situation on his own, and force other people to pay him a wage that is greater than what his job is worth. A 15 yr old could master this job in less than a couple of weeks.

isadore;1742430 wrote:Gosh it is not bad enough that you hate people on government aid programs, now you hate the working poor. One of the many "I got mine, screw you" types to be found on this site.

Dam right I got mine from property, project public living, welfare, poor that fuck poor ... Mom worked, I worked, she demanded I try in school, she demanded I do everything the best I can and achieve and with all those demands I demanded of myself to be the best, achieve, don't settle for less but demand more of myself and everyone around me. Standards, goals and success...she would say.. You want to live like this your whole life be, like them because they will pull you lower.....

Its not hard to achieve it harder to stop following no achievers....

Belly35;1742463 wrote:Dam right I got mine from property, project public living, welfare, poor that fuck poor ... Mom worked, I worked, she demanded I try in school, she demanded I do everything the best I can and achieve and with all those demands I demanded of myself to be the best, achieve, don't settle for less but demand more of myself and everyone around me. Standards, goals and success...she would say.. You want to live like this your whole life be, like them because they will pull you lower.....

Its not hard to achieve it harder to stop following no achievers....

Gosh a ruddies I wish you mom had taught you some compassion and empathy.

isadore;1742464 wrote:Gosh a ruddies I wish you mom had taught you some compassion and empathy.

Our current system isn't working. What would you change to get the lazy and stupid to get jobs instead of just taking advantage of others? In other words, what would motivate you to get a job?

Al Bundy;1742470 wrote:Our current system isn't working. What would you change to get the lazy and stupid to get jobs instead of just taking advantage of others? In other words, what would motivate you to get a job?

gosh a ruddies, what do the working poor deserve; fair pay and benefits to make them self supporting, good working conditions, that would be a good start.

isadore;1742366 wrote:gosh a ruddies, your spin to oppose anything action to help those in the working poor.

So what your saying is that it is the countries duty to help the working poor? Shouldn't the working poor be responsible enough to help themselves? If an 18 year old kid with no money can pay his way through higher education through student loans so can anyone else. There is absolutely no reason why the prices of goods should elevate because "it's the right thing to do". People need to get off their lazy asses, better themselves, and stop reaching out to others to assume a better way of life. I moved to FL when I was 18 years old with $110.00 in my pocket an consider myself very successful now at 40 years old. I WORKED my way to a good salary and never had or wanted anything handed to me. If people want more in life go get it it's out there if they are motivated to better their life

isadore;1742473 wrote:gosh a ruddies, what do the working poor deserve; fair pay and benefits to make them self supporting, good working conditions, that would be a good start.

They have no desire to be self-supporting. Didn't you the read the article at the beginning of the thread?

Bio-Hazzzzard;1742474 wrote:So what your saying is that it is the countries duty to help the working poor? Shouldn't the working poor be responsible enough to help themselves? If an 18 year old kid with no money can pay his way through higher education through student loans so can anyone else. There is absolutely no reason why the prices of goods should elevate because "it's the right thing to do". People need to get off their lazy asses, better themselves, and stop reaching out to others to assume a better way of life. I moved to FL when I was 18 years old with $110.00 in my pocket an consider myself very successful now at 40 years old. I WORKED my way to a good salary and never had or wanted anything handed to me. If people want more in life go get it it's out there if they are motivated to better their life

Oh God no. the personal anecdote that is supposed to cover the life experiences of all the working poor in this country. But of course that is not what it is, just another repetition of the same tired old line on this forum, " I got mine, screw you."

Al Bundy;1742475 wrote:They have no desire to be self-supporting. Didn't you the read the article at the beginning of the thread?

yes I read the poorly worded, poorly sourced, biased article at the beginning of the thread. A fox article that just feeds into the prejudices of the majority of folks on this site.

I am suspicious of the motives of this wage board in NY. If your motive is to help the working poor earn a living wage why target just the fast food industry with this minimum wage increase? Why not across the board like other municipalities have? Is the fast food industry not contributing enough protection money (political contributions) to the proper political authorities in NY? NYC attempted to ban sugary drinks over a certain volume, citing health concerns, and were shot down by their judiciary. Could this be another attempt by the health lords in NY to limit their citizens consumption of what they deem "unhealthy" by increasing the cost to consumers? Something just does not add up. What could possible be the economic reason behind targeting a specific industry with an excessive minimum wage increase?

Bio-Hazzzzard;1742474 wrote:So what your saying is that it is the countries duty to help the working poor? Shouldn't the working poor be responsible enough to help themselves? If an 18 year old kid with no money can pay his way through higher education through student loans so can anyone else. There is absolutely no reason why the prices of goods should elevate because "it's the right thing to do". People need to get off their lazy asses, better themselves, and stop reaching out to others to assume a better way of life. I moved to FL when I was 18 years old with $110.00 in my pocket an consider myself very successful now at 40 years old. I WORKED my way to a good salary and never had or wanted anything handed to me. If people want more in life go get it it's out there if they are motivated to better their life

Wow! The racism is strong here.

ps: spot-on. It can work for anyone who wants to better themself.

isadore: any help or aid should come, not from the government, but rather family first, then friends, then neighbors, churches and other LOCAL entities of the non-government type. The invisible hand of the government cannot replace the visible hand of a neighbor. This falls on the individual. Not the institution.

cruiser_96;1742481 wrote:Wow! The racism is strong here.

ps: spot-on. It can work for anyone who wants to better themself.

isadore: any help or aid should come, not from the government, but rather family first, then friends, then neighbors, churches and other LOCAL entities of the non-government type. The invisible hand of the government cannot replace the visible hand of a neighbor. This falls on the individual. Not the institution.

gosh a ruddies, anything to cut your taxes. the government should provide for the "general welfare" of its citizens.

isadore;1742476 wrote:Oh God no. the personal anecdote that is supposed to cover the life experiences of all the working poor in this country. But of course that is not what it is, just another repetition of the same tired old line on this forum, " I got mine, screw you."

Unfortunately there is no anecdotal potion to fix the people who choose to feed off of the liberal nipple, I sure didn't get mine that way.

You do realize union contracts are tied directly to minimum wage, it goes up they get a raise.
Make sense now why Dems push it?

Uz2Bon36;1742596 wrote:

How much does an employee bring in value to the company? It is entirely possible a cashier is overpaid and CEO underpaid.

Al Bundy;1742617 wrote:How much does an employee bring in value to the company? It is entirely possible a cashier is overpaid and CEO underpaid.

"Among the most vocal opponents of raising the minimum wage are top corporate executives who are making increasingly multiples of the minimum. While the real value of the minimum wage has dropped 25% since 1968, the pay of CEOs at large corporations has exploded. The ratio of CEO pay to that of the average worker was 20 to 1 in 1965, 30 to 1 in 1978, 123 to 1 in 1995, 296 to in 2013, and it is now over 300 to 1. Also, because much executive pay comes in the form of shares of stock and stock options, by keeping wages down corporations have been able to generate higher profits and therefore higher share prices -- which enriches top executives even more.The issue here is not only economic. It is also political, because concentrated income and wealth at the top translates directly into political power -- power to prevent the minimum wage from increasing, for example, and to cut programs for the poor. Most fundamentally, the issue is a moral one. A decent society cannot remain decent, or a society, with the degree of inequality we're now experiencing."

majorspark;1742446 wrote:This guy has had over 30 yrs as an able bodied individual to bring value to an employer that is offering something other than an entry level job. There are plenty of jobs out there above minimum wage that aren't management and require a low level of skill. Also it is his choice to live in NYC is it not? If making subs is the only thing this guy can do why not move? There a dozen or so subways within 50 miles of where I live and that $1300 dollar rent he is paying could be cut by more than half. Obviously the guy could be worse and be sitting on his ass on welfare. What this "model" American wants is however is to continue living where he is at, make no attempt to improve his situation on his own, and force other people to pay him a wage that is greater than what his job is worth. A 15 yr old could master this job in less than a couple of weeks.

Actually there are not "plenty of non-management jobs out there that require low levels of skill."

Let's consider Ohio.

Ohio has a population of 11.5 million people, 5.7 million of which are in the Labor Force. About 300,000 of the nearly 6 million Ohioans who are not participating in the labor force are officially counted as unemployed.

So criminals, welfare recipients, prisoners, people who have gotten lawyers and judges to get them on social security disability despite being capable of gainful actiity, etc. are not even counted in this number.

According to job posting aggregator Indeed.com, there areroughly 52,000 jobs available in Ohio that pay between $16,000 - $30,000 per year.

Even if everybody was as hard working, motivated and as diligent as you there is not enough paid work to go around. Even if this guy did get a different low wage job in 30 years the point is moot in the grand scheme of things.

We have an economy wherein even if everyone had good conservative values millions of people cannot be self-reliant through wage labor because there is not enough to go around.

HitsRus;1742442 wrote:with the sounds of John Lennon's Imagine playing in the blackground......

People that oppose this are not necessarly bad people either. There should be real concern about the inescapable loss of jobs and rising prices that this will entail. The money to pay low skilled labor $3,4, 5,6, 7/an hour more is going to have to paid by somebody. Let's not forget the increase in payroll taxes that will cost the business, nor the cost of pushing people into higher tax brackets, loss of earned income credit etc.

If we had an employer of last resort at a wage below the private sector wage the argument that there will be a loss of jobs due to higher minimum wages is false because even if there are fewer jobs in the private for profit sector there is always a job available in the private, non-profit charitable sector.

Moreover, empowered labor with guaranteed employment could effectively bargain for the costs of higher wages to be borne by capital rather than labor through cost-push inflation.

In any case...the whole minimum wage debate is meaningless to me when there are 25 million unemployed which is the clear and present danger.

Any attempt to raise wages for low skill labor is immediately met by hostility from higher skilled laborers who see nobody arguing for higher wages for them and the type of arguments that you are making...that it will cost jobs, etc.

So let's just hire the unemployed which is cheaper than welfare and private charity and worry about higher shares of gdp going to labor after we end mass idleness.

Al Bundy;1742475 wrote:They have no desire to be self-supporting. Didn't you the read the article at the beginning of the thread?

It is not that low wage workers do not want to be self-supporting, it is that low wage work is incredibly perilous in that thereis high turnover and it is easy to lose a job and can be very hard to get another one if you do lose a job.

And so, getting some kind of government benefits is like hitting the jackpot. A section 8 housing voucher is the golden ticket.

Middle clas salaried employees or hourly workers do not really understand this lifestyle because unlike low wage workers...the labor movement in this country has made jt relatively difficult to fire middle class employees. The amount of hoops employers will go through before terminating a middle class employee is very different than the world low wage workers live in. So they seek to o tain relative security through the welfare state.

We will never eliminate the welfare state without an alternative because that is a one way ticket to communist revolution.

However, we could replace it with an employer of last resort that could make sure low wage private sector workers could always earn a living if they lost their jobs.

Bio-Hazzzzard;1742474 wrote:So what your saying is that it is the countries duty to help the working poor? Shouldn't the working poor be responsible enough to help themselves? If an 18 year old kid with no money can pay his way through higher education through student loans so can anyone else. There is absolutely no reason why the prices of goods should elevate because "it's the right thing to do". People need to get off their lazy asses, better themselves, and stop reaching out to others to assume a better way of life. I moved to FL when I was 18 years old with $110.00 in my pocket an consider myself very successful now at 40 years old. I WORKED my way to a good salary and never had or wanted anything handed to me. If people want more in life go get it it's out there if they are motivated to better their life

25 million unemployed or underemployed Americans and about 5 million jobs in the whole country. Even if everybody took your advice we would have about 20 million who would be shit out of luck.