reclegend22;1717395 wrote:Izzo's streak of getting every class to the Final Four ended last season. Period.

The redshirt technicality is just stupid. The class of 2010 graduated last season.

Izzo best coach in the country.

sleeper;1717444 wrote:Izzo best coach in the country.

I read an article in the New York Times or somewhere yesterday discussing the possibility that Izzo is the greatest coach of all time. It cannot be stated adequately enough how ridiculous that assertion is. He's barely a top five coach in the game right now. John Calipari, Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski and Rick Pitino are all superior to Tom Izzo in terms of career accomplishments, and I'd rank Bill Self right up there as well. Despite some early round defeats in the tournament (which guys like K and Pitino have suffered as well), Self is incredibly underrated IMO.

reclegend22;1717663 wrote:I read an article in the New York Times or somewhere yesterday discussing the possibility that Izzo is the greatest coach of all time. It cannot be stated adequately enough how ridiculous that assertion is. He's barely a top five coach in the game right now. John Calipari, Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski and Rick Pitino are all superior to Tom Izzo in terms of career accomplishments, and I'd rank Bill Self right up there as well. Despite some early round defeats in the tournament (which guys like K and Pitino have suffered as well), Self is incredibly underrated IMO.

Kansas has won 11 straight league titles, that is crazy. I man yeah, the Big 12 is a joke, but that is still crazy.

reclegend22;1717663 wrote:I read an article in the New York Times or somewhere yesterday discussing the possibility that Izzo is the greatest coach of all time. It cannot be stated adequately enough how ridiculous that assertion is. He's barely a top five coach in the game right now. John Calipari, Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski and Rick Pitino are all superior to Tom Izzo in terms of career accomplishments, and I'd rank Bill Self right up there as well. Despite some early round defeats in the tournament (which guys like K and Pitino have suffered as well), Self is incredibly underrated IMO.

Coach K, you mean the guy who lost to freaking Lehigh and Mercer in round 1? LOL

When Izzo loses a game to Lehigh or Mercer in the NCAA tournament then we can start a discussion involving Coach K and Izzo. RIght now, its not even close. Izzo is 5000x better than Coach K ever will be at coaching. I'd love to see coach K win with the current MSU team.

reclegend22;1717663 wrote:He's barely a top five coach in the game right now. John Calipari, Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski and Rick Pitino are all superior to Tom Izzo in terms of career accomplishments...

I had started to post something similar. Recruiting is part of the equation. Ignoring age, there probably are 5 other coaches I'd take ahead of Izzo...and I think he's a great coach - but you have to temper doing "more with less" with the fact that he doesn't recruit "more".

So, what if Izzo wins another title?

Laley23;1717686 wrote:So, what if Izzo wins another title?

Hey, if he wins another title then he's got a legit claim.. But then what if Thad Matta wins 2 titles?

gut;1717688 wrote:Hey, if he wins another title then he's got a legit claim.. But then what if Thad Matta wins 2 titles?

If Thad Matta wins 2 Titles, he would still be behind Izzo. But, much closer. Thats kind of a random question though...youre asking if a guy with at least 3 FFs and 2 titles would be considered a top coach??

Izzo has the resume of a Top 5 coach, minus a 2nd Championship. I get it, its huge. But, there is something to be said about consistently making deep runs and (despite the fact Rec disagrees with the facts) consistently beats up on the B1G. He has placed in the T-4 in 15/18 years, winning the conference 6 times and being runner up 4 more times. Is he really a better or worse coach because Kailin Lucas left with an injury in the 2010 NCAA Tournament, one in which they VERY likely could have won?? That is really the question I am asking.

One of the most important attributes of a coach is recruiting. You can't just take a roster at a given time, completely remove the coach from why that roster is what it is, and then judge what he does with it.

Azubuike24;1717707 wrote:One of the most important attributes of a coach is recruiting. You can't just take a roster at a given time, completely remove the coach from why that roster is what it is, and then judge what he does with it.

Yeah, I cant stand when people say that.

Azubuike24;1717707 wrote:One of the most important attributes of a coach is recruiting. You can't just take a roster at a given time, completely remove the coach from why that roster is what it is, and then judge what he does with it.

True. Although not everyone had World Wide Wes to help them out.

Laley23;1717701 wrote:If Thad Matta wins 2 Titles, he would still be behind Izzo. But, much closer. Thats kind of a random question though...youre asking if a guy with at least 3 FFs and 2 titles would be considered a top coach??

Izzo has the resume of a Top 5 coach, minus a 2nd Championship. I get it, its huge. But, there is something to be said about consistently making deep runs and (despite the fact Rec disagrees with the facts) consistently beats up on the B1G. He has placed in the T-4 in 15/18 years, winning the conference 6 times and being runner up 4 more times. Is he really a better or worse coach because Kailin Lucas left with an injury in the 2010 NCAA Tournament, one in which they VERY likely could have won?? That is really the question I am asking.

The bolded part can't be known so is completely irrelevant to the discussion. If Kyrie Irving doesn't get injured in 2011 and disrupt Duke's dominant start to that season, then Coach K very likely could have won his fifth national title and back-to-back championships for a second time. If Ryan Kelly doesn't go down in 2013 prior to the ACC Tournament ... Same thing.

The what-if game can also be played for other coaches. Bobby Huggins is probably the best example of this with Kenyon Martin in 2000. The Bearcats had the best team in the country that year, bar none. With Martin in the lineup, Cincy probably wins the title and Huggins is elevated from very good coach to one of the all-time greats, a discussion in which he is rarely even considered as successful as he has been.

I'm not ignoring any facts. I simply think that Tom Izzo is overrated compared to other top guys in the game today. The fact is, when it comes to defining the career of a coach, or any athlete, numbers do matter and whether or not Kalin Lucas got injured in 2010, Tom Izzo's career numbers simply don't stack up to that of others. You act as if Izzo is the only guy who has been dominant in his conference over the last 15 years. Bill Self has won 11 straight conference titles and Coach K won 10 out of 13 titles in the ACC from 1999 to 2011. Izzo is very good. Not the best. Could he run off two straight titles and turn the discussion on its head? Yeah, he could. But he must do it first.

superman;1717715 wrote:True. Although not everyone had World Wide Wes to help them out.

Wes is actually more "in" with Coach K than Coach Cal anymore. He's been somewhat "distanced" from by UK. He's still seen at games, usually the neutral site ones, but he's pretty connected all over.

Rec,

Thats what I think is stupid. He will NOT be a better coach by winning a title this year than not. He will NOT be a worse coach. I never said he would have won the title. I said it was very realistic to think he couldve. Lost by 2 to Butler who almost beat Duke. My whole point is, if he wins that title, we somehow think he is a better coach? I think that is dumb. I would argue anyone until I die that Izzo is better than Donovan. Give me 7 FFs and a title of 3 FFs and 2 titles. I love Knight as we all know...but he did not make many Final Fours (for a variety of reasons). He simply won when he got there. Why does that make him better than someone who wins 2 and makes 7 Final Fours (should Izzo do that this year)??? I like to look at the entire resume, and I think Izzo is being discredited for only 1 title, when he blows almost every other coach out of the water when it comes to NCAAT success.

And I absolutely do not think he is the only coach to dominate his conference. I do not think he is the only coach with March success. I dont even think he is a top 5 coach in basketball. I simply am disagreeing with how much you think he is overrated, thus am arguing on his behalf.

Laley,

I agree with you completely with regard to Billy Donovan. While he has had mini periods of success throughout his career, the majority of it was the result of one class. So, as it stands right now, I think that automatically removes him from the greatest coach conversation. Donovan is a bit of an oddity in that way, at least compared to the other guys that often frequent that list who have achieved a more sustained level of success with many different recruiting classes.

As for whether or not a championship makes a difference in the career of a coach (excluding the Donovan outlier, because of how downright terrible he has been at times), I absolutely believe it does. That is a significant part of the legacy of an all-time great coach, which is more what I am arguing here (see my post about the NY Times article suggesting Izzo as the greatest of all-time). It may not intrinsically make Izzo a better coach if he wins a second title this year, but it would certainly lend to his credibility as one of the very best in further demonstrating his ability to win at the highest levels of his sport. There is a big difference between winning a regional final and cutting down the nets on Monday night at the Final Four.

In terms of the professional athlete arena, look at the careers of Michael Jordan and Reggie Miller. Reggie Miller was inarguably one of the best playoff performers ever (and possibly even more clutch than His Airness himself in that venue), yet only competed in one NBA Finals. Well, we all are familiar with the playoff exploits of Michael Jordan. Kind of a random example, but I think it does illustrate the difference between being really good and really great.

Don't get me started on billy Donovan lol

Azubuike24;1717707 wrote:One of the most important attributes of a coach is recruiting. You can't just take a roster at a given time, completely remove the coach from why that roster is what it is, and then judge what he does with it.

Some schools recruit themselves due to their history; Duke, UK, UCLA, Kansas, etc. Sorry but if you put coach K or Cal at MSU they are no names and are fired into obscurity in less than 3 years.

sleeper;1717747 wrote:Some schools recruit themselves due to their history; Duke, UK, UCLA, Kansas, etc. Sorry but if you put coach K or Cal at MSU they are no names and are fired into obscurity in less than 3 years.

Was Duke all that special when K took over in 1980? They did make the finals in '78, but that was after a 12 year drought of no tourney appearances.

reclegend22;1717739 wrote: As for whether or not a championship makes a difference in the career of a coach (excluding the Donovan outlier, because of how downright terrible he has been at times), I absolutely believe it does. That is a significant part of the legacy of an all-time great coach, which is more what I am arguing here (see my post about the NY Times article suggesting Izzo as the greatest of all-time). It may not intrinsically make Izzo a better coach if he wins a second title this year, but it would certainly lend to his credibility as one of the very best in further demonstrating his ability to win at the highest levels of his sport. There is a big difference between winning a regional final and cutting down the nets on Monday night at the Final Four.

Fair enough, and I do agree that titles matter. But, not as an absolute. Give me Izzo over Donovan for one, and over many others with 2 titles. I dont think he is behind nor in front of guys like Roy Williams or Pitino either. Probably would put them all at a dead heat. Id have to think about it, but there is no doubt MSU is a tougher place to win the way Izzo has than Kansas/UNC or Kentucky/Lousiville. Pitino is pretty remarkable in getting 3 teams to a FF and Roy less so getting 2 Bluebloods. Izzo is not at some school with no history, but MSU is still not what the others are, and that matters.

Sleeper has never appeared to have a particularly strong grasp on the history of this sport.

gut;1717752 wrote:Was Duke all that special when K took over in 1980? They did make the finals in '78, but that was after a 12 year drought of no tourney appearances.

Who cares? Swap MSU with Duke's players and Izzo is undefeated while Coach K is sitting at home after losing in the NIT to Mercer or Lehigh.

reclegend22;1717754 wrote:Sleeper has never appeared to have a particularly strong grasp on the history of this sport.

Top 5 coach. Loses in March to Mercer and Lehigh. LOL. Such a joke of a coach.

Azubuike24;1717718 wrote:Wes is actually more "in" with Coach K than Coach Cal anymore. He's been somewhat "distanced" from by UK. He's still seen at games, usually the neutral site ones, but he's pretty connected all over.

His relationship with K is why UK is now losing some one semester mercenaries to Dook.

There is no BEST coach in the pure sense of the word. It is subjective.There is more or less accomplished, which can be quantified with numbers.

Prescott;1717854 wrote:There is no BEST coach in the pure sense of the word. It is subjective.There is more or less accomplished, which can be quantified with numbers.

Spot on. So much goes into winning a national championship. Guys at the top level program..if you have been around, don't do things much different across the board. Obviously, recruiting plays huge. As far as preparation, x and o's.....these guys all know their shit pretty well or they obviously wouldn't be where they are. And getting where they are, being in the right place at the right time, knowing someone...all played a part. I personally know/knew some GREAT high school, lower level college coaches. Guy men, great coaches.