I see both arguments making sense.... Personally playing for Orrville during the independent years I remember how playing up made a difference come post season. I also know that a town with a rich tradition like Orrville leaves patience at a premium for losing. I see the change in the aptitude of the kids, larger schools, travel times, the overall community has also changed in general. All these things have been discussed so no need to railroad this thread into something else but it isn't hard to see if your looking. But I also know we HAVE had some rough years as well. 91-93 were some lack luster records. Although we played a pretty CRAZY schedule!!! BUT we stayed the course and things came around. I am sure if we look back far enough we will see patches like this one throughout our history. So I wonder what has changed this time around? What factors are REALLY different? Not making an argument either way just thinking out loud... Well not really out loud but as I type..... I also think being a coach today has GOT to be ten times harder than it EVER was in the past....

Sanitizer, I know I am beating a dead horse right now but I have played and watched Orrville sports my whole life. I know what "Rider Half" means. I remember being chest bumped by Smitty, I remember playing up. I remember working my ass off in the off season. I remember QB's and WR's getting together (by themselves) at the practice field in the summer on off days to work more. I remember breaking into a shed to get extra work done on Sundays. I remember lifting at 5am and going back at 4:15P M because I felt like I needed to. I remember the feeling of invincibility walking onto the field on Friday night. I remember our lineman telling the other team the plays before the snap because we needed a challenge (and they still could not stop it). I remember the entire town would be there on Friday night. I remember the old weight room with a garage door put up to "get some air". I remember kids that would do anything to play, help, lead and win.

The team I have seen the last two years are not the most talented, but they have not done the things they need to do to get better. We have been the weakest team on the field for every game the last two years. That is something these kids can control by the effort they put in on the off season. A weak team with facilities I would have died for when I was there. You can say all you want that the OCC is not a good fit for us (maybe it never was) but since when do Riders get out worked! If you don't have the talent (and right now we don't) then you damn well better have the work ethic to get better, stronger, and faster.

Coach Davault should get a raise for what he has had to work with the last two years. I feel bad for him because his hands are tied right now. Weather you like his x's and o's or not the only one working out there are the coaches. If you did not have Haley and Davault out there right now you would not want to see what would be happening. The parents of the players need to look in the mirror (some of them were pretty good players in their day) and step up. Get the kids off the couch and get them lifting, running, doing the extra stuff you need to do to compensate for talent. I don't care if you are in the OCC, PAC, or WCAL they are not working hard enough to win.

Read an interesting article in the Orr Views today about a plaque being placed in the high school library honoring a women from the 40's - 60' who was instrumental in helping to improve the living conditions of black families who were moving to town to work at Koppers and QC. It mentioned that many of these black families lived in small houses/shanties out near the old Koppers plant. So it got me thinking again of ALL the factories that are no longer in this town that provided HUNDREDS of blue collar jobs....

Koppers
Technocast
Volvo
Westinghouse/Rosemount
Orrville Products
Louisiana Pacific

...and I am sure I missed some!

Yes...our population hasn't changed much, but the dynamics of that population are DRASTICALLY different!! There were good paying jobs here and plenty of them that resulted in families choosing to lay roots in this town, send their kids to our schools, and get behind their beloved RED RIDERS!! Oh how times have changed....

Let's not discount the natural attitude of young people to do about as much as they're required to do...homework, job, weightlifting, etc. Self-motivation is not a strongsuit of 16-18 yr olds. Sure there are exceptions.....but all the weights in the world can't make someone a better player. It can make you stronger...but it can't make you more of a "gamer." There were weightroom animals that were terrible football players. There were kids who never touched a weight that were some of the greatest players our program has ever seen. It is what it is.

I've heard stories of "stars" being "hurt" Monday through Thursday so they didn't have to lift/practice, but were good to go on Friday night. They weren't in the weightroom except to sign in and out. Maybe lift a little when the coaches were in there & watching. They were also guys that showed up on August 1st for two-a-days. Not in there all summer. They got by on talent alone. Our program has done that since the 60's. We out-talent teams. We've never out-executed or out-coached anyone. We gave it to the back who could run a 4.5-40 and threw it up to the 6'3" receiver....and tore your head off on defense.

I think we're all getting old and cynical....wanting to share our own "back in my day" story. Our folks thought our generation was weak...now we think that about the next generation.

Old Rider;1694463 wrote:Read an interesting article in the Orr Views today about a plaque being placed in the high school library honoring a women from the 40's - 60' who was instrumental in helping to improve the living conditions of black families who were moving to town to work at Koppers and QC. It mentioned that many of these black families lived in small houses/shanties out near the old Koppers plant. So it got me thinking again of ALL the factories that are no longer in this town that provided HUNDREDS of blue collar jobs....

Koppers
Technocast
Volvo
Westinghouse/Rosemount
Orrville Products
Louisiana Pacific

...and I am sure I missed some!

Yes...our population hasn't changed much, but the dynamics of that population are DRASTICALLY different!! There were good paying jobs here and plenty of them that resulted in families choosing to lay roots in this town, send their kids to our schools, and get behind their beloved RED RIDERS!! Oh how times have changed....

This is the drum I've beaten for years. People know it's true...just tough to admit.

If those families started coming here in the 40's (post WW2) and had kids, they would have been high school age starting in the early 60's. When did our program have their first real good run of football teams.

Football in the 1950's - 43 wins, 42 losses, 5 ties. 4 winning seasons
Football in the 1960's - 71 wins, 24 losses, 3 ties. 9 winning seasons. 3 unbeaten seasons.

The birth of RTR was the 1960's...right about the time our town was seeing a boom of families moving here, working here and living here. It's no coincidence.

No jobs = no hard-working families. No hard-working families = no hard-working kids.

You need good people having good people. That means productive citizens raising good kids. We don't have enough of that right now.

RedRider1;1694471 wrote:Let's not discount the natural attitude of young people to do about as much as they're required to do...homework, job, weightlifting, etc. Self-motivation is not a strongsuit of 16-18 yr olds. Sure there are exceptions.....but all the weights in the world can't make someone a better player. It can make you stronger...but it can't make you more of a "gamer." There were weightroom animals that were terrible football players. There were kids who never touched a weight that were some of the greatest players our program has ever seen. It is what it is.

I've heard stories of "stars" being "hurt" Monday through Thursday so they didn't have to lift/practice, but were good to go on Friday night. They weren't in the weightroom except to sign in and out. Maybe lift a little when the coaches were in there & watching. They were also guys that showed up on August 1st for two-a-days. Not in there all summer. They got by on talent alone. Our program has done that since the 60's. We out-talent teams. We've never out-executed or out-coached anyone. We gave it to the back who could run a 4.5-40 and threw it up to the 6'3" receiver....and tore your head off on defense.

I think we're all getting old and cynical....wanting to share our own "back in my day" story. Our folks thought our generation was weak...now we think that about the next generation.

I don't disagree with you much, but completely do on this topic. If you don't think a stronger athlete is a better football player you are crazy. Also, there were some of the athletes that just showed up and were a star but few and not at all the norm. Hurt during the week..you better be able to practice at least a day or two in the week or you would not play. Are there exceptions yes but you are painting a picture of that being normal and it was not.

why do you think heads were torn off on defense in the past...right because they were weak and lazy...wrong! I am also saying this is even more important on a team that is not that talented. I get it Talent trumps all but if you can honestly look at our team the last two years and tell me that any of those kids did the work in the offseason I will be happy to listen. I see players complaining about losing and doing nothing to change it.

I remember always having a mix? What I mean is when I was young we had kids with "god given talent" and we had kids to were always in the weight room. Rarely were the really talented kids spending all day lifting. I do remember ALWAYS getting together to throw, run routes, or just catch a few extra balls. Crazy to say but one thing I remember about the huddles I was in most of my life is looking into those other 10 sets of eyes and seeing the same crazy rage I had looking right back at me. The players on those team were balls to the wall for sure, regardless of talent!

Some good points listed and I think you are ALL right. And your points just reinforce my belief that we have a lot of factors hindering our program these days. And I think its a little normal to think kids are softer than we were.... That seems to be common, BUT I KNOW my parents were tougher than I am or ever was, so that may be true. I also believe with all my heart the industry changes have had a MAJOR impact on the pool of talent.

RedRider1;1694474 wrote:This is the drum I've beaten for years. People know it's true...just tough to admit.

If those families started coming here in the 40's (post WW2) and had kids, they would have been high school age starting in the early 60's. When did our program have their first real good run of football teams.

Football in the 1950's - 43 wins, 42 losses, 5 ties. 4 winning seasons
Football in the 1960's - 71 wins, 24 losses, 3 ties. 9 winning seasons. 3 unbeaten seasons.

The birth of RTR was the 1960's...right about the time our town was seeing a boom of families moving here, working here and living here. It's no coincidence.

No jobs = no hard-working families. No hard-working families = no hard-working kids.

You need good people having good people. That means productive citizens raising good kids. We don't have enough of that right now.

And that cycle continued on thru the late 80' and 90's...many of which were grandkids of those original families. That all started to dwindle in the early 2000's when those companies began to leave town or close their doors. I would bet that if we were to go down the entire roster of football players you MAY be able to find 5-6 kids at the most who have relatives that PLAYED here at Orrville.

It easy for me to talk about the history and the tradition of our program to my boys simply because I grew up here, watched all those great teams under Mo/Mac, had brothers that played and then got to live it myself. But most of these kids today have NO CLUE who Mark Griggs, Clay Tipton, Dave Vodika, Tommy Moore, Jack Leeder, Mark Tillison, Marcell Denson, Renauld Ray even are because their parents didn't grow up here or play here.

Sanitizer...I remember sharing many of those huddles with ya brother!!!

And that cycle continued on thru the late 80' and 90's...many of which were grandkids of those original families. That all started to dwindle in the early 2000's when those companies began to leave town or close their doors. I would bet that if we were to go down the entire roster of football players you MAY be able to find 5-6 kids at the most who have relatives that PLAYED here at Orrville.

It easy for me to talk about the history and the tradition of our program to my boys simply because I grew up here, watched all those great teams under Mo/Mac, had brothers that played and then got to live it myself. But most of these kids today have NO CLUE who Mark Griggs, Clay Tipton, Dave Vodika, Tommy Moore, Jack Leeder, Mark Tillison, Marcell Denson, Renauld Ray even are because their parents didn't grow up here or play here.

VERY VALID! And on the work front, kids are going to do what they WANT to do, the secret is making them WANT to do the right thing....

I apologize. Should I be talking about Orrville football or basketball here? When Orrville joined the OHC in 4 years of play the football team won the title first year but never was above .500 after that finishing 11-12 in OHC play when the conference folded. In basketball their "glory days" were behind them and during the same time went 19-28 in OHC play.

An-Old-Fan;1695226 wrote:I apologize. Should I be talking about Orrville football or basketball here? When Orrville joined the OHC in 4 years of play the football team won the title first year but never was above .500 after that finishing 11-12 in OHC play when the conference folded. In basketball their "glory days" were behind them and during the same time went 19-28 in OHC play.

What is your point? We are a public school there will be peaks and valleys but we have been fortunate that the valleys over time have been short and few.

rrfan;1695228 wrote:What is your point? We are a public school there will be peaks and valleys but we have been fortunate that the valleys over time have been short and few.

All of the OCC schools are public but your comment is exactly my point. Why all of a sudden is down seasons the reason to leave the OCC. Mansfield has been down in sports other than basketball, football and swimming for years.

An-Old-Fan;1695283 wrote:All of the OCC schools are public but your comment is exactly my point. Why all of a sudden is down seasons the reason to leave the OCC. Mansfield has been down in sports other than basketball, football and swimming for years.

Not everybody wants to leave the OCC. You need to remember that.

An-Old-Fan;1695283 wrote:All of the OCC schools are public but your comment is exactly my point. Why all of a sudden is down seasons the reason to leave the OCC. Mansfield has been down in sports other than basketball, football and swimming for years.

Because are enrollment numbers are nowhere close to the other schools. The schools were TOO BIG then and are still TOO BIG. Its not just the high school being affected...our middle school kids are getting pounded, losing games, and then choosing not to play!! Its that simple. Down years or not, we don't belong!

Find me another school in the entire state who is playing in a league where the disparity is similar to the OCC? Clear Fork doesn't belong either. Its very simple in my mind and if you talk to ANY of the coaches in the middle school or high school they will tell you the EXACT same thing!!

rrfan;1695288 wrote:Not everybody wants to leave the OCC. You need to remember that.

That's always the case, I know. But it seems the ones in charge are looking hard to leave and tossing out bogus reasons. IMO

Hope the OCC stays together and even looks to grow.

Old Rider;1695295 wrote:Because are enrollment numbers are nowhere close to the other schools. The schools were TOO BIG then and are still TOO BIG. Its not just the high school being affected...our middle school kids are getting pounded, losing games, and then choosing not to play!! Its that simple. Down years or not, we don't belong!

Find me another school in the entire state who is playing in a league where the disparity is similar to the OCC? Clear Fork doesn't belong either. Its very simple in my mind and if you talk to ANY of the coaches in the middle school or high school they will tell you the EXACT same thing!!

The numbers have NEVER been close. What I hear there is because your kids are now quitting sports the OCC is now bad for you. You can deal with your problems any way you want but just be honest about the problem in your simple mind. IF your coaches think that way then maybe that is part of the problem.

Because are enrollment numbers are nowhere close to the other schools. The schools were TOO BIG then and are still TOO BIG. Its not just the high school being affected...our middle school kids are getting pounded, losing games, and then choosing not to play!! Its that simple. Down years or not, we don't belong!

Find me another school in the entire state who is playing in a league where the disparity is similar to the OCC? Clear Fork doesn't belong either. Its very simple in my mind and if you talk to ANY of the coaches in the middle school or high school they will tell you the EXACT same thing!

I get the argument both ways, but I find it amusing how people think "because we are Orrville" we should not complain. If ANY other school in our situation made the argument people would understand. At the end of the day our ability to win over the years has caused the argument. Having the disparity in enrolment is why divisions were made in the first place? Crazy to hear people think that the number gap doesn't matter..... CRAZY to me! When we won in the AOL we were in schools with similar enrolments, we won and that is held against us now. We went independent and has success and that is held against the town. I don't completely agree with leaving but I also don't completely agree with staying. I just hope the powers that be know what TO do and keep the kids best interest at heart.

RTR!

An-Old-Fan;1695303 wrote:The numbers have NEVER been close. What I hear there is because your kids are now quitting sports the OCC is now bad for you. You can deal with your problems any way you want but just be honest about the problem in your simple mind. IF your coaches think that way then maybe that is part of the problem.

For not being an Orrville guy you seem VERY interested in OUR decision about the league.

Old Rider;1695311 wrote:For not being an Orrville guy you seem VERY interested in OUR decision about the league.

Over the years I have enjoyed the competition of the OHC and OCC with all the schools. Growing up in a small rural school I understand the challenges of playing bigger schools but saw the rewards as well. To me, if the rewards are not there it is not a big school issue it is a smaller school problem. Just like your example of the kids, if you get beat you can quit or work to get better. In today's world it seems quitting is more acceptable.

What will happen if you get into the PAC and still get your teeth kicked in? Because with what I see on the talent side that is what will happen. You can not fix the problem by running away from it. Right now talent is down and the kids are not going the extra miles!

rrfan;1695327 wrote:What will happen if you get into the PAC and still get your teeth kicked in? Because with what I see on the talent side that is what will happen. You can not fix the problem by running away from it. Right now talent is down and the kids are not going the extra miles!

The only example that I can use to argue this is our 2013 football season. We ended the year at 4-6 with one of our wins coming against the PAC champs - Triway, who finished 8-2 and made the playoffs. This years team was not very good, but I still think they were a 5-5 team if they had a PAC like schedule. IMO

I know...people will say that the PAC schedule didn't prepare the Titans for the post season...and maybe so. But I will take an 8-2 season and a playoff birth any day of the week. Especially after what we have done the last 3 seasons.

Old Rider;1695336 wrote:The only example that I can use to argue this is our 2013 football season. We ended the year at 4-6 with one of our wins coming against the PAC champs - Triway, who finished 8-2 and made the playoffs. This years team was not very good, but I still think they were a 5-5 team if they had a PAC like schedule. IMO

I know...people will say that the PAC schedule didn't prepare the Titans for the post season...and maybe so. But I will take an 8-2 season and a playoff birth any day of the week. Especially after what we have done the last 3 seasons.

I hear you on that and that is valid point. I am just concerned that the kids won't/don't pay the price to be great. It is not all their fault they have been babied for too long. I hate the old everyone gets a blue ribbon of today. Need to learn how to win and how to lose. Kind of like not keeping score in flag football at the club...you need to learn the difference and there is one between winning and playing...they will learn it someday and I feel that is the most valuable lesson sports can teach and today we are scared some kid or parent will be offended. I have been offended the last two years of watching crap on Friday nights!

Since this is a basketball forum I'll talk basketball. Last 4 seasons, 2 district titles and played for a 3rd. All while having a losing record in the OCC and never finishing higher than 5th. Of course only 5 years years ago the Red Riders were playing for a state title and finished 2nd in OCC with a 10-4 record.

An-Old-Fan;1695342 wrote:Since this is a basketball forum I'll talk basketball. Last 4 seasons, 2 district titles and played for a 3rd. All while having a losing record in the OCC and never finishing higher than 5th. Of course only 5 years years ago the Red Riders were playing for a state title and finished 2nd in OCC with a 10-4 record.

Right...basketball schedule in the OCC does prepare us for the D3 tourney, but EVERYONE gets in the tourney.
In football you have to win games in the regular season to make it.

An-Old-Fan;1695342 wrote:Since this is a basketball forum I'll talk basketball. Last 4 seasons, 2 district titles and played for a 3rd. All while having a losing record in the OCC and never finishing higher than 5th. Of course only 5 years years ago the Red Riders were playing for a state title and finished 2nd in OCC with a 10-4 record.

Great Point!

Let me say that right now the girls programs are doing just fine in the OCC.