gut wrote:

Glory Days wrote: Nailed it. I wasnt born with an attraction to long legs and preference of brunettes over blondes etc.

You weren't? Really? I don't think my preferences have ever changed from the earliest I can remember. Attraction is an unconscious physical reaction. Therefore, being attracted to someone is not a choice we have control over.

No i wasnt, it was conditioned. So my preference to green over blue objects is something i am born with also, because i dont know exactly when i decided i liked green over blue?

maybe we should change this to "are you born with the instinct to reproduce or do you choose to reproduce".

cats gone wild wrote: A few things I wonder about is, why do gay guys act more girlie then a girl, and why do they talk with their hands and use their s's in a hiss?

And women gay couples, why does one have short hair or look manly? If they are both gay, then why does a woman want a woman that looks like a guy?:

You wouldn't wanna meet one of my sister's friends, LOL! He's a big biker, and there's not a damn thing feminine about him, but he's gay.

Oh, its a choice. I choose to plow the anuses of Zwick, Darby, Society, etc. etc. cause I'm biologically programmed to drop the hammer on homosexuals.

GeneralsIcer89, Just because your sister's friend is a big gay biker does not make him tough. Will he walk in a biker bar acting girly? I'm not trying to pick on him but I've never seen a biker come into a bar acting like he is gay... Or is he hiding it?

Glory Days wrote:
No i wasnt, it was conditioned. So my preference to green over blue objects is something i am born with also, because i dont know exactly when i decided i liked green over blue?

maybe we should change this to "are you born with the instinct to reproduce or do you choose to reproduce".

Conditioned??? How exactly does one become conditioned to like blue over green? Did your parents sit you down and flash colors with accompanying sensations of electric shock and bad smells?

Also, no, we are not born with the instinct to reproduce. We are born with the instinct to copulate. This is why you see acts of homosexuality and bisexuality in the animal kingdom, unless you want to try to argue that benobo chimps are making such conscious choices.

hang_loose wrote: GeneralsIcer89, Just because your sister's friend is a big gay biker does not make him tough. Will he walk in a biker bar acting girly? I'm not trying to pick on him but I've never seen a biker come into a bar acting like he is gay... Or is he hiding it?

You make a very interesting point here, 'hang__loose'. A friend of mine and myself were in our normal establishment several years ago looking to play some pool. We were playing against each other when these two very large and very intimidating men in full biker garb walked over to the table and put their quarters down to play us when our game was over. We were trying to decide...1) Were these guys going to kill us if we beat them, 2) Did one or both have a length of chain he would whip out and start destroying the bar...I mean these guys were tough looking dudes. They turned out to be very poor pool players. We won one, then another game...after four or five games they came over to us and in voices that sounded almost prepubescent, thanked us for the games but they really had to leave to meet some friends. We shook hands and we looked at each other after they left and let out a collective sigh of relief. Then we were embarrassed because of our total misread on these guys who were as nice as could be and just wanted to play some pool, and then later we were embarrassed over the fact that we both thought (to ourselves) that instead of the big bad guys we thought we were dealing with, we figured because of the way they talked that they had to be gay. Stereotyping is unwise in almost every case. We never saw those guys at our sports bar ever again.

GoChiefs wrote:Where as..on this thread..it's asking if you are born with it? Now..some gays say yes..you are born with it...while other gays say no..it's a choice.

Just a thought, but is it possible that some gays who say it is a choice say so because they aren't comfortable with people saying it's an "abnormality" they are born with? Most people - not just gays - feel being labeled as born "different" or "not normal" is derogatory and insulting. Also, from a political perspective in terms of gay rights, can you think of another movement that strongly promotes the right to choose?

It's obvious that some people DO choose to be gay, while it should also inherently easy to understand that for others it was a choice made for them biologically, unless as has been mentioned you have chosen to suppress latent homosexual desires then I can understand how such insight might elude you.

gut wrote:Just a thought, but is it possible that some gays who say it is a choice say so because they aren't comfortable with people saying it's an "abnormality" they are born with? Most people - not just gays - feel being labeled as born "different" or "not normal" is derogatory and insulting.

I'm not inside their heads..so I can only go by what I was told. Not what they were possibly thinking. But yes..I suppose that could be a reason..or..they just feel they made a 'choice'.

GoChiefs wrote: I have a hard time believing you are 'born gay'. It's a choice IMO.

You're born gay. However, you choose to be obese.

GoChiefs wrote:

dtdtim wrote: So you've basically admitted and established that you are a hypocrite, yet don't care.

Goodbye credibility.

Where did I say I was a hypocrite? I didn't..you did. I guess I lose credibility to YOU. Which..again..I'm not going to lose sleep over. I explained my thoughts..and there is absolutely nothing hypocritical about it. Whether you want to accept that is up to you.

You didn't have to say you were a hypocrite. Your own statements exposed you as one.

One one thread you say this about obesity.....

GoChiefs Wrote: Well as a matter of fact it does make me more of an expert. If you haven't lived the life..you know absolutely nothing about it.

I'm assuming from your statements that you have never lived the gay life so you would know nothing about it. Again, this is based on your own statements.

So that makes you a hypocrite and your argument has no credibility whatsoever.

I have no problem with your stance. It is your right. I just have a problem with your hypocrisy.

I'd say it's a 50/50 answer.

Some are "born that way" due to being "victims of their environment", or with weaker minds that don't comprehend the Adam and Eve of human nature. Some fear what they do not know about the opposite sex, thus take cover in their own sex.

Others are "choice", and preference of sexual exploratory adventures plays a big part. Again, the weakened state of mind plays a part, and most live in denial that they ever went that far.

I've had gay men tell me they went gay because no girl liked them, or that they once did have a woman in their life, she cheated on them so they went gay. Not that gay men will ever cheat.... lol.

Gay women on the other hand are 85 times more likely to be "bi-sexual". Obviously women are comfortable enough with themselves to naturally share more than guys do in the "un-gay" sense. I have heard of gay women cheating on their partner as well. I've also had gay women tell me they went lesbian because a man cheated on them or left them. One once told me she went lesbian because God took her husband in a car accident, and she believed that is the path he chose for her. Again, a weak mind comes into play.

So yea, being born with a weak mind plays a big part, but choosing to become gay with that weak mind plays a bigger part.

I went with choice. God knows that my life has been very messed up at times, but hell no... I'd NEVER go for a man.

I don't choose to find women attractive...I Just do

^^^
Now if you could only get them to reciprocate...

Tiernan wrote: ^^^
Now if you could only get them to reciprocate...

Burn? I'd normally come back with a witty "your mom" reference, but it's too early

My thoughts === choice.

In order to answer this question we first need to define homosexuality and heterosexuality. Are these words merely defined by preference? Or are they defined by action? Perhaps someone is more attracted to a person of the same sex, but marries a person of the opposite sex and has sex with them for the rest of their life, even though the whole time they really aren't sexually attracted to them. Are they still a homosexual because that is their preference, or are they a heterosexual because that is their actions.

If it is based on action then it is clearly a choice. Every time you have sex (outside of rape) you are making a choice to have sex with that person. Anyone could make a choice to have sex with persons of the same sex, the opposite sex, or not at all.

Now, if it is defined by preference then I still believe it is a choice, although I do believe that you can be born with a genetic predisposition to prefer persons of the same sex or opposite sex. I do think that some people may be born with some genetic markers that predispose them to be more likely to be a homosexual than others, just as some people are genetically predisposed to be alcoholics. Not all people who are genetically predisposed to alcoholism will become alcoholics and not all alcoholics were genetically predisposed to become such. The same is true with homosexuals. It does come down to a choice. (From a religious standpoint, this is how someone could theoretically be "born that way" and it still remain a sin. Psychopaths do not make a choice to have no remorse for their actions, they are born that way, but that does not excuse them from murder or other horrendous acts because being a psychopath was not a choice.) You may find yourself more attracted to people of the same sex than the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean you have to act on it. While certain people may be predisposed to be attracted to a person of the same sex it ultimately is a choice.

I'd just say that CARING about other people's sexuality is, in fact....very, very gay. So, you're gay.

Just curious. Those of you who think sexual preference (Not action) is a choice, do you know anyone personally is homosexual or bi-sexual? If you did, you would know that nobody in their right mind would choose to be something that is so hated in this society. Yes someone who is homosexual can "choose" not to act on it, but that doesn't mean he/she isn't born with a chemical and hormonal makeup that attracts them to the same sex.

And for those of you who think homosexuality is unnatural, here is an interesting piece from National Geographic http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html.

"...but that doesn't mean he/she isn't born with a chemical and hormonal makeup that attracts them to the same sex. ..."

Is their such a chemical and hormonal makeup?? That's very interesting to me.

Con_Alma wrote: "...but that doesn't mean he/she isn't born with a chemical and hormonal makeup that attracts them to the same sex. ..."

Is their such a chemical and hormonal makeup?? That's very interesting to me.

Many studies say yes.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm

There was a great article on the subject in New York magazine I believe a few years ago. Basically it did a study of homesexual and heterosexual people and showed some interesting things like the pattern of hair growth was different in straight and gay men. Very interesting.

I've also heard that sexual preference could be related to one's experience in the wound and that a stressful pregnancy could lead to hormonal imbalance and perhaps homosexuality. I'd have to look into this more though.

I've seen many theories with some conclusions that are a stretch but nothing definitive. I'll read the article you posted.

krambman wrote: In order to answer this question we first need to define homosexuality and heterosexuality. Are these words merely defined by preference? Or are they defined by action? Perhaps someone is more attracted to a person of the same sex, but marries a person of the opposite sex and has sex with them for the rest of their life, even though the whole time they really aren't sexually attracted to them. Are they still a homosexual because that is their preference, or are they a heterosexual because that is their actions.

They are homosexual. Sexuality is your preference, not your action. You don't become gay or straight at the point you decide to engage in sexual activities. Humans know early on in life what they find arousing and it may be several years (or never) before they act on it.

"...Other research has HINTED that homosexuals MAY exhibit the tendencies of the opposite sex in brain behavior unrelated to sexual activity. ..."

"...One POSSIBLE interpretation of the connectivity pattern in straight men and lesbians is that the amygdala is wired for a greater fight-or-flight response, the authors say. ..."

emphasis mine

It's an interesting start.

Con_Alma wrote: "...Other research has HINTED that homosexuals MAY exhibit the tendencies of the opposite sex in brain behavior unrelated to sexual activity. ..."

"...One POSSIBLE interpretation of the connectivity pattern in straight men and lesbians is that the amygdala is wired for a greater fight-or-flight response, the authors say. ..."

emphasis mine

It's an interesting start.

I welcome SCIENTIFIC articles that argue the choice point of view. Please no biblical quotes.

...no Biblical quotes or references at all by me thus far. I too welcome scientific articles. The difference I think is that I seek those that don't necessarily argue a certain side as much as ones that approaches the topic from a more unbiased or neutral beginning.