sleeper;1735710 wrote:Again, the problem isn't Love as a player. He's obviously very good. The issue is, is he the best piece for the Cavs given a healthy Irving and Lebron? I don't think that he is and his contract $ could be spent more efficiently.

But they were on the floor together. It takes time.

friendfromlowry;1735711 wrote:I'm not worried about James, Irving, and Love not being able to function offensively. At this rate, we'll be lucky if the three of them are all playing healthy in next year's finals.

Only one I'd be worried about is Kyrie. He's had a hell of a lot of injuries for his age.

Automatik;1735713 wrote:Only one I'd be worried about is Kyrie. He's had a hell of a lot of injuries for his age.

Valid. Just hope that with Love, his back/shoulder won't be an ongoing thing. I'm not a doctor, but it just seems like issues with your back would never completely go away, especially when you're a professional athlete. Just my opinion. I certainly wouldn't let it get in the way of signing him given the chance. Also difficult to justify being worried about Lebron more so than many other players in the league. But he's played a lot of minutes and taken beatings trying to carry his teams.

BR1986FB;1735704 wrote:Haven't we beaten this "dead horse" about Love before? His value, being the third wheel, isn't going to be scoring 25 and getting 15 boards a night. His value is going to be how he opens up the spacing on the floor and outlet passes in transition, which he's magnificent at. Yes, he'll get his 10+ rebounds but, with KI & LBJ, something's got to give with his scoring. Bosh had to swallow that same pill in Miami. Do you want a championship or do you want to pad your stats for a "so so" team? They can't all be alpha dogs.

That value isn't worth a max deal. And again, the Cavs problem isn't talent, its depth which was very apparent against the Warriors. The Warriors don't have a Big 3, they have a Big 2 and a bunch of very strong role players(Green, Iggy, Barnes) and a solid bench(Livingston, Lee, Ezeli, Barbosa). Even their trash tier has some respectability to it(Bogut, Speights, Rush, McAdoo).

Compare that to the Cavs who effectively have a Big 3(Love, Irving, James), role players(TT, Varejao, JR, Shumpert), and no bench just trash tier(Delly, Miller, Marion, Perkins, Harris, Jones, etc.). Does Love getting you 15-10 every night worth having instead of a bench that can produce and give you minutes without blowing leads? Sorry but no, not for a max deal he isn't.

I think the idea of a Big 3 is the exception, not the rule, in winning NBA championships.

Automatik;1735713 wrote:But they were on the floor together. It takes time.

Maybe. But I disagree that this is really that big of an issue. An issue, sure, but a big issue? No way. These are professional basketball players being coached by a professional coach; the idea that they need time to mesh is a convenient media generated excuse and not a reality.

friendfromlowry;1735711 wrote:I'm not worried about James, Irving, and Love not being able to function offensively. At this rate, we'll be lucky if the three of them are all playing healthy in next year's finals.

Depth solves that issue. If we didn't have Love but instead had another 2 solid role players, rotational guys, I think even when Irving went down we'd have something other than Delly/Shumpert/JR/Jones putting in significant minutes and probably would have won the championship.

A near max contract for a role player? Is that what the nba is now?

TT "could" become a max guy in another year or two but not yet. You can only have ONE alpha male at this level on any one team period. Love knew exactly what he was signing up for and I think he will be fine. I don't even think anyone types up this debate if we are a healthy team. We have the best player but in THIS series with our limited roster GS had the better team. I know it may have been said already but I REALLY don't think this is a series if we are healthy. Look how strongly we were playing in the second half of the season. I am SUPER happy with where we ended up with the squad we had. Coming this close could be exactly what the organization and players need to enforce the idea of what MUST be done to get here again and more importantly what it takes to win the hardware. VERY gritty run IMO.... Gave it all they had, unfortunately we did not have enough..... Next chapter.....

robj55;1735726 wrote:A near max contract for a role player? Is that what the nba is now?

I don't understand your question nor do I understand what this has to do with anything I've said.

like_that;1735696 wrote:This.

Anybody who didn't see this wasn't watching the cavs on a regular basis or just eating up whatever ESPN says.

Completely agree.

Move some dead weight and sign Igoudala .............solve two problems

sanitizer;1735727 wrote:TT "could" become a max guy in another year or two but not yet. You can only have ONE alpha male at this level on any one team period. Love knew exactly what he was signing up for and I think he will be fine. I don't even think anyone types up this debate if we are a healthy team. We have the best player but in THIS series with our limited roster GS had the better team. I know it may have been said already but I REALLY don't think this is a series if we are healthy. Look how strongly we were playing in the second half of the season. I am SUPER happy with where we ended up with the squad we had. Coming this close could be exactly what the organization and players need to enforce the idea of what MUST be done to get here again and more importantly what it takes to win the hardware. VERY gritty run IMO.... Gave it all they had, unfortunately we did not have enough..... Next chapter.....

I don't think TT will ever be a 'max' player but he should be highly paid.

Agreed. If this team was at full strength, I think we win the title this year. I am more speaking towards the long run roster and building a dynasty with multiple championships and I think that will be easier to achieve by allocating salary cap more effectively. I think Lebron has 3-4 strong years left and there's no reason he doesn't retire with 4-5 more championships; 3-4 as a the top dog, and 1-2 in his sunset years.

Do people not realize that if love walks, it's not like the Cavs have his salary to spend. They'd still be over the Cap. So regardless love is signing with cleveland, it just could possibly be in a sign and trade.

Midstate01;1735734 wrote:Do people not realize that if love walks, it's not like the Cavs have his salary to spend. They'd still be over the Cap. So regardless love is signing with cleveland, it just could possibly be in a sign and trade.

Please explain this to Azu and Zwick.

Pretty good read:

http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/238223/LeBrons-Cleveland-Odyssey-Continues

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1735533 wrote:Eh, I don't think the Cavs have too much of decisions to make being where we were in the cap. They pretty much have to resign people they have b/c they don't have cap to go out and sign FA. It's probably going to hurt Gilberts wallet to resign all of his guys, but he doesn't have much of a choice if he wants to keep this team rolling.

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1735536 wrote:Do they though?

Lebron makes 22 mil next year
love makes 17
andy makes 10
kyries makes 15
jr makes 6
TT will get probably 15
Mozgov gets 5
Miller gets 3
Shump will get at least 5 if not 7
Delly will get 2
Harris gets 1

That's already at 100 mil from 11 guys. I cant find what the cap is next year, but it's only 63 mil this year, it wont go up 40 mil for next. So we don't have cap room to sign FA.. we can only resign our own guys or do sign and trades.

Even if you don't sign TT and Shump, you're at 80 and cant sign anyone else and down 2 solid players. That's why we have to resign our guys.

like_that;1735736 wrote:Please explain this to Azu and Zwick.

youre approaching s&l levels of being wrong lately.

Two goals for the off-season, IMO...

1) Find a better sixth man than JR Smith. He had his opportunity to shine as a #2 and he failed. 2 Offensive rebounds in 202 minutes. If your shot isn't falling, get to the line (10 FT's in 6 games, even Ezeli and Lee had more FTA's in 152 and 163 minutes less respectively), get some boards (2 ORB in 202 minutes), contribute somehow. He declined his PO and thinks he will get more than the 5.5M this year. He is wrong. I would absolutely love for them to sign Louis Williams, but I know that's not feasible.

1A) Use Haywood to shore up the bench. They need bench help (along with health)to cut back on LeBron's minutes in a big way. He has played 2,000 more minutes than anyone else in the league since 2010-2011. He cant keep doing this forever.

JR Smith had the opportunity of a lifetime to get rid of the JR being JR like in Denver and NY. Because he imploded in the finals he probably lost a ton of money.

Ytowngirlinfla;1735756 wrote: Because he imploded in the finals he probably lost a ton of money.

Which is actually great for the Cavs.

sportswizuhrd;1735754 wrote:Two goals for the off-season, IMO...

1) Find a better sixth man than JR Smith. He had his opportunity to shine as a #2 and he failed. 2 Offensive rebounds in 202 minutes. If your shot isn't falling, get to the line (10 FT's in 6 games, even Ezeli and Lee had more FTA's in 152 and 163 minutes less respectively), get some boards (2 ORB in 202 minutes), contribute somehow. He declined his PO and thinks he will get more than the 5.5M this year. He is wrong. I would absolutely love for them to sign Louis Williams, but I know that's not feasible.

1A) Use Haywood to shore up the bench. They need bench help (along with health)to cut back on LeBron's minutes in a big way. He has played 2,000 more minutes than anyone else in the league since 2010-2011. He cant keep doing this forever.

this chart seems a little misleading to me...Most of the others on here did not play nearly as many games. Lebron going to the finals every year will inflate the minutes played stat. I don't disagree need to get him more rest but this chart does not tell the whole truth.

Haha, you make it sound like I have no idea how the caps works. C'mon. Everything about Love is speculation. I'll believe it when he actually signs long-term with Cleveland and he's on the roster when camp starts. I mean, regardless I don't see a situation where he doesn't get a max deal from Cleveland and then what the Cavs do with that, they do with it.

However, does anyone actually see a situation where all of the following happens?

LeBron gets a max deal with Cleveland (going to happen) - 20-22M
Love gets a max deal with Cleveland and isn't traded - 20-22M
Thompson gets an extension with Cleveland, maybe 5 year/70M - 14M
Varejao isn't moved - 10M
Haywood's extension is picked up - 10M
Kyrie Irving - 16-18M (don't know exact)

Right there alone, you're looking at almost 85M for 6 players (including Kyrie). You also have Mozgov due for free agency after next season. Seems they will need to do something more to get some other help.

Haywood's extension won't be picked up. Not even an option. They either trade that contract or dump it to save in luxury tax. Including that doesn't even make sense.

Also if you can get Thompson to sign that deal, then yes you do it. 14 mil a year when the cap goes up actually isn't bad, would be a good value for him actually.

Azubuike24;1735821 wrote:Haha, you make it sound like I have no idea how the caps works. C'mon. Everything about Love is speculation. I'll believe it when he actually signs long-term with Cleveland and he's on the roster when camp starts. I mean, regardless I don't see a situation where he doesn't get a max deal from Cleveland and then what the Cavs do with that, they do with it.

However, does anyone actually see a situation where all of the following happens?

LeBron gets a max deal with Cleveland (going to happen) - 20-22M
Love gets a max deal with Cleveland and isn't traded - 20-22M
Thompson gets an extension with Cleveland, maybe 5 year/70M - 14M
Varejao isn't moved - 10M
Haywood's extension is picked up - 10M
Kyrie Irving - 16-18M (don't know exact)

Right there alone, you're looking at almost 85M for 6 players (including Kyrie). You also have Mozgov due for free agency after next season. Seems they will need to do something more to get some other help.

I agree with you. I don't think Gilbert cares about spending whatever it takes to bring championships to Cleveland however that is not the problem. The problem is having too many cooks in the kitchen heavily handicaps your depth and leaves you highly prone to the same thing that happened this year. It's just bad roster management. There's a reason Miami was only able to win 2 of 4 NBA finals and ultimately it came down to a lack of depth on the roster. Big 3 is the exception not the rule to winning NBA championships.

Midstate01;1735833 wrote:Also if you can get Thompson to sign that deal, then yes you do it. 14 mil a year when the cap goes up actually isn't bad, would be a good value for him actually.

No doubt. He's worth that easily.

Midstate01;1735831 wrote:Haywood's extension won't be picked up. Not even an option. They either trade that contract or dump it to save in luxury tax. Including that doesn't even make sense.

Why not? It gives you a piece you could move in a trade and give back an expiring contract. Other than picks, without a deal like that, the Cavs are very hamstrung in making a move outside of using a MLE on 1 player. They would essentially have...

LeBron
Love
Thompson
Irving
Mozgov
Varejao
Harris
Dellevadova

Smith, Miller and Shumpert won't be back, unless there's a new deal.

You would definitely want to have that expiring Haywood deal to potentially make another Shumpert/Smith trade like they did this year. You gotta have a salary to deal back unless of course they find a way to dump Varejao (as we discussed in prior pages, it will be much tougher than an expiring Haywood).

Commander of Awesome;1735744 wrote:Pretty good read:

http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/238223/LeBrons-Cleveland-Odyssey-Continues

Ugh this section is pretty spot on

"The revisionist history of the Love trade will continue to resemble the James Harden trade for the Thunder and Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan for the Blazers in its perpetually repeated discussions. When LeBron returned to the Cavaliers, I was much more interested in seeing him play with Andrew Wiggins than I was Love. Watching these Finals, it is easier to see how well a player who can defend positions 2-4, hit corner 3’s and cut to the basket like Harrison Barnes would make a more meaningful impact than Love in this specific situation with LeBron at the center of everything. You could see Wiggins playing a better version of Barnes' game with LeBron and Kyrie to give Cleveland a seemingly infinite title window."