McFly1955 wrote: Would read this thread again.


Call me old-fashioned, but I think this is just another sign of the wussification of everyone. Not that choir or band is wussy, just the fact that letters were once meant for athletes, then someone complained and threatened to sue, now everyone gets one.

I won't call you old-fashioned, but I'll call you dishonest unless you come up with a citation for this supposed lawsuit.

I was in choir and played football, I can say without question football players deserve the letter MORE than choir kids. I'm not saying a kid in choir doesn't deserve a letter (I didn't) because some kids work their asses off to be good at it. My reasoning for football is that it's more of a competition than choir. 32 football players on my team, and 14 had starting jobs (obviously most played both ways) and there were 19 kids in choir and everyone of them sang at every competition we went to.

I have a Lamp of Knowledge letter from high school that has a genie lamp on it. My football letters came with a separate football patch. I would assume that a choir letter would have something similar if you wanted to distinguish it from other letters.

I'm not really sure what the big deal is. A letter for band or choir isn't eggregious, a kid takes time to practice and do something they enjoy and are good at and someone wants to belittle them? I don't get it. I'm not for participation trophies and things like that but today it's harder (seemingly) to get kids to participate in extra curriculars of any kind so I'm not about to deter a kid from doing choir.

I've got no problems with 'letters' for band or choir as long as they are designated as such. Don't most schools award letters that are designated anyway? If there are some who don't...I've never seen one.... my baseball letters from back in the 70's have a baseball on them. My daughter's school gives you a letter and a pin for your designated sport.
If a letter is a school's way of recognizing excellence, I've got no problem with it being awarded for any activity.. That said, awarded letters should be for being exceptional. You don't get a letter for playing JV....you shouldn't get one for being 3rd trumpet or just participation.

This discussion seems to center about whether letters should be for 'athletes' alone. It is just a variation of the arguement over whether cheerleading or golf is a 'sport'.

MrPoke wrote: You don't get a letter grade for sports, you do for band and choir which are classes, so there is your "letter"

Amen.


How many people try out for band/choir and don't make it? How many levels of band/choir are there? Varsity/JV/Freshmen?

This is coming from someone with 0 letters for varsity sports. I respect the letter that it goes to ATHLETES that deserve it.

Are you people serious?
This is a free country and any child that takes his free time after school and dedicates themselves to something should be able to wear any jacket they want.
Now when the start handing out letterman jackets to teachers that have perfect attendance and don't sleep with any of their students then i will have a problem,but until then let the kids be proud of what they excel at.

I know all these people that walk around with steelers and raiders letterman jackets on never played a down of pro ball,so maybe they should ban them also.

homefield wrote:
"until then let the kids be proud of what they excel at."



+1

Keebler wrote:
How many people try out for band/choir and don't make it? How many levels of band/choir are there? Varsity/JV/Freshmen?

Varies widely. The top competition bands are highly competitive for a set number of positions, and work every bit as hard year round as any sport I've seen or participated in. Others are purely recreational (show bands suck, BTW).

redfalcon wrote: 3 Time-Someone on the other thread said that in some cases band takes more time than football. They are right. I did all four years of high school band, and I coached football this past year, and I can say that when you compare the time spent by an average band student to the time spent by an average football player, the football player, yes the football player will spend MORE time on their activity. However, when you take the students in band who really work hard and put in the extra time, the music students win by a mile. I have students who spend extra time in the morning before school, stay after school, for one on one lessons, attend the games to perform, and even come in during my prep period. That doesn't include the extra weekends for honors bands and district festival, nor does that include all the time they spend practicing at home.

lol, you think band is the only activity where people spend time out of practice working? During wrestling season, I was up at 6:00 going to the gym before school, eating no breakfast, a tiny lunch, and then a 3-4 hour practice that the band team would last 20 minutes. After that I would sometimes even head back to the gym for more cardio. If they have talent and work hard thats great, but dont act like the band works harder then everyone else.

BORIStheCrusher wrote: If they have talent and work hard thats great, but dont act like the band works harder then everyone else.

Fine, but don't pretend that at many schools, that they don't work every bit as hard as the athletes (and in fact, are often athletes in the winter and spring sports).

queencitybuckeye wrote:

Keebler wrote:
How many people try out for band/choir and don't make it? How many levels of band/choir are there? Varsity/JV/Freshmen?

Varies widely. The top competition bands are highly competitive for a set number of positions, and work every bit as hard year round as any sport I've seen or participated in. Others are purely recreational (show bands suck, BTW).

I'm guessing your sports programs are garbage then. I played basketball, football, and track throughout high school and when I wasn't in class 100% of my time was focused on athletics. I was also in choir for a year because I needed an easy A and it was by far the easiest class of my career.

homefield wrote: Are you people serious?
This is a free country and any child that takes his free time after school and dedicates themselves to something should be able to wear any jacket they want.
Now when the start handing out letterman jackets to teachers that have perfect attendance and don't sleep with any of their students then i will have a problem,but until then let the kids be proud of what they excel at.

I know all these people that walk around with steelers and raiders letterman jackets on never played a down of pro ball,so maybe they should ban them also.

agree with this...
it is harder and harder to find kids who want to get involved, to participate in extracurriculars, to represent their school in any acitivity...when it would be far easier to do nothing; in a small school often many of the same kids who play sports also sing in the choir, or play in the band. Encouraging diversity and a well-rounded high school experience is what we should all be about...The one's who are dedicated and devote their time and energy to strive for excellence, regardless of the activity should be accorded similar acknowledgement. By the way, any kid who is proud enough of their school to participate, excel, and wear a school jacket should be commended.

It's been over 20 years since I graduated and our school gave out letters for band. Not everyone earned letters. They were not given for just participation, as a member had to meet certain requirements to earn them. It's weird since Band was a class and an extra curricular activity. However your grade could be affected by attendance, performance, conduct, and the like outside of the classroom.

Band wasn't even a full credit when I was in school (1/2 credit). It became a full credit course after I left. It took a person to monitor the time spend after hours for performances and practices to justify it becoming a full credit course. (Mainly due to Marching Band) She monitored only the time that the Director was on the podium or running the rehearsal. It was then presented and upgraded to a full credit.

Let's not forget to that many musicians take private lessons for their instrument or to learn a new instrument on thier own time. (and they weren't free) Plus practicing over the summer months when school was out in order to keep your 'chops' working. I myself took private lessions to learn a different instrument when asked to by my director, at my own expense.

I don't agree with the argument that their should be not letter because it's a class. If it were only a class then they should not have to participate in after hour activities, just only in the classroom.

wizecracker wrote:

I'm guessing your sports programs are garbage then. I played basketball, football, and track throughout high school and when I wasn't in class 100% of my time was focused on athletics. I was also in choir for a year because I needed an easy A and it was by far the easiest class of my career.

You'd guess wrong. They're competitive in just about every sport, with a few trophies thrown in that say "State Champions". The music program is first-rate as well. Most importantly, the academics are outstanding.

Ya we've won just a few a few state titles as well. I have a question then. When my team won a title my junior year the marching band members thought they deserved a ring as well. Deserved ot undeserved?

wizecracker wrote: Ya we've won just a few a few state titles as well. I have a question then. When my team won a title my junior year the marching band members thought they deserved a ring as well. Deserved ot undeserved?

Undeserved, of course. They should be competing themselves. Again, show bands suck.

ccrunner609 wrote: When I see a JV band or a kid cut from the choir for not being any good then they can have their letters.

Several schools have separate marching bands for football and for competitions (recreational vs. serious).

I think a few of you need to reread some of this.

Other than concert band, most bands are highly competitive and cut people often. I cut two students before the concert because they weren't pulling their weight, also, my jazz band has a set number and is by audition only.

As for the time, as I said before, the average football players no doubt spend more time than the average band student. However the students who are lettering in music are spending time before and after school, weekends, and they practice a few hours every day and take lessons and honors bands over the summer. Don't you dare assume that since you work out every day it automatically means you spend more time on your activity. I can respect those who are saying they think letters should be for athletes only, I have no respect or tolerance for the few of you on here who are trashing the arts and calling those who participate fairies and fags.

I watched my high school band when I was in high school. My plastic drums for Rock Band sounded better than them. The choir was a joke. It was a class and an easy arts A.

Keebler wrote: I watched my high school band when I was in high school. My plastic drums for Rock Band sounded better than them. The choir was a joke. It was a class and an easy arts A.

Harsh but very true. I was in the choir along with playing football, basketball, and baseball.

At my high school, all of our athletic letter jackets were cardinal red. now the choir and band kids got their letters, but the letter jackets they got were dark blue. I liked this, it stopped me from having to wonder how the hell that kid got a letter until i saw CHOIR on the back of his jacket.

I have no problem with letters for band and choir. Really there is no logical reasoning that they should not. I am reading a bunch of whining emotional appeals instead of well reasoned arguments as to why the band and choir cannot get letters.

Letters are a recognition symbol for an accomplishment. For sports it is for the specific accomplishment and the band and choir they have their own.

When someone can show a good logical argument as to why letters should not be awarded to band and choir I am willing to listen.

What harm is caused by awarding letters to the band and choir?

I could see a problem if the band and choir were getting football letters for playing in band or choir, but they have their own letters which distinguish them as band and choir members.

Read this.

http://www.freehuddle.com/Thread-Letter-jacket-for-Choir-WTF

lhs has the post you are looking for.

yes, lhs has the well reasoned argument

Keebler wrote: Read this.

http://www.freehuddle.com/Thread-Letter-jacket-for-Choir-WTF

lhs has the post you are looking for.

What post number is it? is LHS the poster?

BCSbunk wrote:

Keebler wrote: Read this.

http://www.freehuddle.com/Thread-Letter-jacket-for-Choir-WTF

lhs has the post you are looking for.

What post number is it? is LHS the poster?

Never mind I found and responded. That is NOT a logical well thought out argument.

In fact it is guilty of logical fallacy Appeal to tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition