First let me say that I started a new thread because I wanted to be damn sure everyone read this tyhat posted on the other thread.

Now let me give you some quick background:
I played some sports when I was younger, both little league and high school sports (golf, but because of band I was unable to do organized team sports).

I played in band in high school and was in choir.

I coached football at the middle school level.

I am currently a 6-12 band director.

And before I start my rant, let me say that I think many of you had some intelligent points on the other thread, but I need to set a few things straight.

1-Lettering: For all of you who are complaining about letters for band and choir, please explain why you seem to think that everyone wearing one of those letters had it handed to them? I award letters for band, but they have to earn them. Just like in sports, I don't give them out to everyone, the students which earn them have to go above and beyond. Some of my requirements include perfect attendance at all performances, they must keep their grade up, they can't miss assignments, and I expect any students who wants to letter in band to perform a solo at district competition as well as do extra work both on their instrument and outside of class.
Just because someone has a letter for band or choir doesn't mean they didn't earn it. While you may not participate in the arts or in academic electives, it doesn't mean that they are worthless. Letters are given to those who have exceptional talent and to instill pride in all areas of the school.

2-Credit for show choir: Are you aware that most states require a fine arts elective in the curriculum for graduation? Even in the states which don't require it, most school districts do. People get a credit for show choir and other music courses because it teaches them about a valuable part of culture, history, geography, music, and several other subjects. Jazz band requires large amounts of discussion about US History to discuss the origins of the music, world history and culture to learn about the influences, and even basic math to help understand how to better play the music. Show choirs often involve history, culture, geography, and they involve the Industrial Tech departments and the Home Economics departments at most schools. This is why students get credit for these courses.

3 Time-Someone on the other thread said that in some cases band takes more time than football. They are right. I did all four years of high school band, and I coached football this past year, and I can say that when you compare the time spent by an average band student to the time spent by an average football player, the football player, yes the football player will spend MORE time on their activity. However, when you take the students in band who really work hard and put in the extra time, the music students win by a mile. I have students who spend extra time in the morning before school, stay after school, for one on one lessons, attend the games to perform, and even come in during my prep period. That doesn't include the extra weekends for honors bands and district festival, nor does that include all the time they spend practicing at home.

I understand that this is a sports forum, but letters are award to those who excel in their area and to help instill pride in the school and give students something to work for.

I grew up and went to school in Ohio, and I saw that un many schools, music was second behind athletics. I now teach in the State of Wyoming, and I can tell you that music and athletics often go hand in hand. In my bands I have football, basketball and volleyball player as well as track and swim team members, golfers, wrestlers, and cheerleaders. I also have the coaches kids in my band.

The interesting part is the athletes are the ones working the hardest towards that letter.

redfalcon wrote: First let me say that I started a new thread because I wanted to be damn sure everyone read this tyhat posted on the other thread.

Now let me give you some quick background:
I played some sports when I was younger, both little league and high school sports (golf, but because of band I was unable to do organized team sports).

I played in band in high school and was in choir.

I coached football at the middle school level.

I am currently a 6-12 band director.

And before I start my rant, let me say that I think many of you had some intelligent points on the other thread, but I need to set a few things straight.

1-Lettering: For all of you who are complaining about letters for band and choir, please explain why you seem to think that everyone wearing one of those letters had it handed to them? I award letters for band, but they have to earn them. Just like in sports, I don't give them out to everyone, the students which earn them have to go above and beyond. Some of my requirements include perfect attendance at all performances, they must keep their grade up, they can't miss assignments, and I expect any students who wants to letter in band to perform a solo at district competition as well as do extra work both on their instrument and outside of class.
Just because someone has a letter for band or choir doesn't mean they didn't earn it. While you may not participate in the arts or in academic electives, it doesn't mean that they are worthless. Letters are given to those who have exceptional talent and to instill pride in all areas of the school.

2-Credit for show choir: Are you aware that most states require a fine arts elective in the curriculum for graduation? Even in the states which don't require it, most school districts do. People get a credit for show choir and other music courses because it teaches them about a valuable part of culture, history, geography, music, and several other subjects. Jazz band requires large amounts of discussion about US History to discuss the origins of the music, world history and culture to learn about the influences, and even basic math to help understand how to better play the music. Show choirs often involve history, culture, geography, and they involve the Industrial Tech departments and the Home Economics departments at most schools. This is why students get credit for these courses.

3 Time-Someone on the other thread said that in some cases band takes more time than football. They are right. I did all four years of high school band, and I coached football this past year, and I can say that when you compare the time spent by an average band student to the time spent by an average football player, the football player, yes the football player will spend MORE time on their activity. However, when you take the students in band who really work hard and put in the extra time, the music students win by a mile. I have students who spend extra time in the morning before school, stay after school, for one on one lessons, attend the games to perform, and even come in during my prep period. That doesn't include the extra weekends for honors bands and district festival, nor does that include all the time they spend practicing at home.

I understand that this is a sports forum, but letters are award to those who excel in their area and to help instill pride in the school and give students something to work for.

I grew up and went to school in Ohio, and I saw that un many schools, music was second behind athletics. I now teach in the State of Wyoming, and I can tell you that music and athletics often go hand in hand. In my bands I have football, basketball and volleyball player as well as track and swim team members, golfers, wrestlers, and cheerleaders. I also have the coaches kids in my band.

The interesting part is the athletes are the ones working the hardest towards that letter.

Its kinda hard to practice football by yourself

When you refer to "putting in the extra time", are you including all the hundreds of hours of lifting and film study that the coaches can't participate in as well?

Not being sarcastic or anything...just asking.

I am a little confused there. While I understand that the coaches certainly won't be hitting the weight room, the coaches watched film weekly.

redfalcon wrote: I am a little confused there. While I understand that the coaches certainly won't be hitting the weight room, the coaches watched film weekly.

I'm referring to the players borrowing tape to study on their one during the offseason or providing a blank tape for a copy to be made so they can keep it.

The players lift from December through July with a lot of independent film study thrown in. I'm just asking if that's included.

One more thing I failed to mention-if I have a student who isn't working at all and is just slacking off, they don't letter, they don't pass, and they don't even participate in some performances. I expect my students to actually spend some time working. Don't assume that band and choir is something at which you don't have to work hard.

Letters were started and meant to be for athletes back in the good ole 50's, until some band or soccer mom decided that her little Johnny deserved one for band, choir, tiddlywinks, etc, and then everyone felt they deserve one. Gimmee a freaking break. There's no such thing as tradition anymore, because of all the whiny-asses and PC. Noone can have anything 'special' to their talent or trade because OMG, we have to be fair to all. things like band and choir should have come up with their own tradition of achievement, instead of whining and screaming for equality. I dunno, maybe a tattoo of a note on their asses, that would have been original.

There's nothing worse than seeing a high school kid who looks geeky as all hell(and at this point I'm thinking, "WTF??!!, " cross my path with a letterman jacket on, and then as they pass, I see choir or band on the back of their jacket.

tuskytuffguy wrote: Letters were started and meant to be for athletes back in the good ole 50's, until some band or soccer mom decided that her little Johnny deserved one for band, choir, tiddlywinks, etc, and then everyone felt they deserve one. Gimmee a freaking break. There's no such thing as tradition anymore, because of all the whiny-asses and PC. Noone can have anything 'special' to their talent or trade because OMG, we have to be fair to all. things like band and choir should have come up with their own tradition of achievement, instead of whining and screaming for equality. I dunno, maybe a tattoo of a note on their asses, that would have been original.

Remember a few years back when the Army decided that everyone would be issued green berets?

You don't get a letter grade for sports, you do for band and choir which are classes, so there is your "letter"

^^^Exactly

Letters are for ATHLETES..not band members. If it wasn't for the games the band wouldn't even be needed. They are called varsity letters..which in my opinion means you need to play a varsity sport to get one. And no way in hell is band is a sport.

Lettering in band and choir? GTFO. Come on Varsity Letters are made for athletes. The bands and choirs should come up with their own award system

Cheerleaders shouldn't wear letter jackets anyways..they don't flatter their chests. Academic letters are a joke, as well. Letters should be earned in athletic competition, not by getting good grades (are you fucking kidding me....isn't this why you go to school?) or marching in the band. If you excel in a sport enough to merit a varsity letter you deserve it..letters shouldn't go to every Tom, Dick and Harry just becuase they toot a trombone or got good grades but played JV football. It waters down the letters for the ATHLETES who deserve them.

Ok..so my last post was in response to post that was soooo stupid whoever the hell posted it removed it. Talk about getting owned. Thanks for coming out with your majorette lettermen jacket...I hope twirling a baton gets your kid far in life.

I was never in the band but had a lot of freinds that were and they worked very hard to put on a good show at half time and was always doing well in comp. I don't see why they should not be allowed to letter. If you can letter in golf you can letter in band(people in the band work hardder than the golfers).

tuskytuffguy wrote: Letters were started and meant to be for athletes back in the good ole 50's, until some band or soccer mom decided that her little Johnny deserved one for band, choir, tiddlywinks, etc, and then everyone felt they deserve one. Gimmee a freaking break. There's no such thing as tradition anymore, because of all the whiny-asses and PC. Noone can have anything 'special' to their talent or trade because OMG, we have to be fair to all. things like band and choir should have come up with their own tradition of achievement, instead of whining and screaming for equality. I dunno, maybe a tattoo of a note on their asses, that would have been original.

There's nothing worse than seeing a high school kid who looks geeky as all hell(and at this point I'm thinking, "WTF??!!, " cross my path with a letterman jacket on, and then as they pass, I see choir or band on the back of their jacket.

HAHA, no shit... Band member jackets should be laced with sparkles and bows so you know it when you see it......from a distance. They should be proud to set themselves apart from the average "Joe football" player.

I have been a coach and teacher for a very long time, and I have awarded varsity letters to hundreds, maybe thousands of athletes over the years. When I was in school, I was also in the band, all the way from my introduction in the fifth grade through college. I never received a varsity letter for band. I never expected a letter and there was no public outcry in those days for such a thing. Had there been, I would have received a letter in band. It would be kept where our family's athletic and other awards are kept. It would be looked at on special occasions perhaps, but other than holidays, recipients' deaths (Those letters make a nice display at the Funeral Home), or some other special occasion, those awards basically gather dust, whether they be musical or athletic or academic...or whatever. I have nothing against the awarding of music "letters" because I realize that we aren't comparing the same skill set, the same group of people in many cases, and frankly, if it gives the musicians, singers, thespians, or whoever else decides to start awarding "Letters" an added sense of accomplishment and pride, then go for it., I still have absolutely no problem with it. If a sport wants to give out a letter, I'm fine with that too. I don't understand all the petty territoriality concerning who has the "right" to award letters.

I would add in closing, that several athletes from our school have made huge names for themselves, including a rather famous Olympian. Another good athlete from our school also has made quite a name for himself as one of the lead violinists in a major symphony Orchestra in Texas and many others have also made great careers in both athletic and musical venues. I don't think the letters that they did or did not receive for their efforts in school, mean one little thing to them now, but if we decide to give "Letters" out, I will not oppose it, regardless of the activity, because no two people are alike and the term "Letter" does not mean the same thing to me from one activity tp another. We award diplomas to everyone who completes a basic schedule of academic work and there is no requirement that the effort be equal, or the difficulty of the classes be the same for every person...but the diploma says the same thing. Why the big argument when we do it for sports as well as music, theater, etc. etc. ?

TBone14 wrote: Ok..so my last post was in response to post that was soooo stupid whoever the hell posted it removed it. Talk about getting owned. Thanks for coming out with your majorette lettermen jacket...I hope twirling a baton gets your kid far in life.

Not choosing sides, but I know a girl that received a scholorship and completed her degree at the University of Michigan. She was a majorette.

Where I went to school, the band members get a letter, but they are smaller and have musical notes on them to denote that it is a band letter, not an athletic varsity letter. This acknowledges the effort put forth by the band member in their extra-curricular, but is not a true "varsity letter". I feel like this is a good compromise, as it still keeps the tradition of varsity letters but gives the kids in band (who work hard in their own right) something to be proud of.

Thanks for reminding me, "Gobuckeyes". We began doing this at my school also. I think a musical award should have a musical identification. It makes the award special for the musician who has worked hard and given of his/her time and effort.

Let them have thier letters..... I would however expect that any athlete that wears a jacket with an athletic letter to CURBSTOMP any one wearing a varsity jacket with a band or choir label on them.

The problem to me is the JACKET. The athletes' jackets should be discernable from the other "liberalized" versions of varsity letter award winners. I dint think that having BAND or CHOIR under the letter on a VARSITY jacket accomplishes anything.

I earned 12 varsity letters and 4 choir letters while at Oak Harbor HS. I was proud of both equally. Don't be ignorant of those that are equally gifted in sports and/or choir/band. All of them take talent and deserve recognition...

tuskytuffguy wrote: Letters were started and meant to be for athletes back in the good ole 50's, until some band or soccer mom decided that her little Johnny deserved one for band, choir, tiddlywinks, etc, and then everyone felt they deserve one. Gimmee a freaking break. There's no such thing as tradition anymore, because of all the whiny-asses and PC. Noone can have anything 'special' to their talent or trade because OMG, we have to be fair to all. things like band and choir should have come up with their own tradition of achievement, instead of whining and screaming for equality. I dunno, maybe a tattoo of a note on their asses, that would have been original.

There's nothing worse than seeing a high school kid who looks geeky as all hell(and at this point I'm thinking, "WTF??!!, " cross my path with a letterman jacket on, and then as they pass, I see choir or band on the back of their jacket.

Why do you have problems with talents other than athletics being recognized?

LOL high school letter jackets.

Would read this thread again.


Call me old-fashioned, but I think this is just another sign of the wussification of everyone. Not that choir or band is wussy, just the fact that letters were once meant for athletes, then someone complained and threatened to sue, now everyone gets one.

By the way, I think varsity jackets in general are stupid.....I have some varsity letters somewhere from baseball, and I have no idea where they are, they may still be at my parents house from when I moved....I enjoyed playing the game, could care less about a letter.