lhslep134;1581846 wrote:I'm not going to be upset at UJ signing for 4/48 until he actually starts performing like he did last year, for Baltimore. That's no sure thing.

This. Most of last season I thought he was a fucking bum. Gets to the end of the tribe schedule with terrible teams and starts producing? Yeah count me in the GFY territory on 4yrs $50 mil.

[h=1]Beginning of the end for Masterson?
In this regard, the Indians front office may lighten its load for later this week. Justin Masterson and Homer Bailey are scheduled for arbitration hearings Thursday, but Masterson could be a solo act in St. Petersburg, Fla. Bailey and the Reds are reportedly negotiating a six-year deal that could be worth $100 million. If that's the case, Bailey will set the market for Masterson and his negotiations with the Indians on a multiyear deal. If Masterson and the Indians can't use Bailey's reported deal to reach a multiyear deal, it could mean that this will be Masterson's last year in Cleveland. He's eligible for free agency at the end of the season. Masterson, 28, and Bailey, 27, are comparable players in terms of service time and performance.

[/h]http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2014/02/will_justin_masterson-clevelan.html

As I said in one of the posts about not signing Ubaldo, they might as well see what they can get for Masterson now.

He's as good as gone at this point, especially if he has a fast start this year.

They waited too long to get serious about an extension for him.

My bigger question is how Cincy is seemingly able to afford to keep guys on a pretty consistent basis while we are left perpetually crying about market size as our guys walk out the door?

The Reds are just willing/able to pay. Their payroll was 30M more than the Tribe last year.

God I hate the cheap ass dolans.

se-alum;1581845 wrote:Hard to believe the Indians would let Jimenez go for 12mil/yr. That's a steal for what he can give ya. The Reds are about to give Bailey 16.5M/yr to be a #2 or #3 starter. Lincecum getting about 17.5M/yr and he's had about a 5.00 ERA over the last two years. Burnett got 16M/yr with similar numbers to Jimenez. Seems like the Tribe and Reds have been equally disappointing this offseason.

As have the Pirates. Who probably could have gotten Burnett for $14.1M (I think that was what they could have tendered him after the year) back when he was saying his options were either coming back to Pittsburgh or retiring. But they didn't offer him and mainly were saying they didn't think they could pay that much for one player. And so he picked a third option and went to Philly. Fuck.

All this stuff about Ubaldo pitching well against 'terrible teams' is spin. He beat bona fide major leaguers and he was nails when we needed it the most. It would not have hurt to hedge against Masterson's departure by signing a veteran pitcher for what in today's market is cheap. You are not going to get to the World Series with a pitching staff composed of rookies and 2nd and 3rd year pitchers. If Masterson doesn't sign, you are back to looking/hoping for a #1 again. He gains leverage by the day.

Opening day 2001 the Tribe's payroll was $91.9 million. Adjusted for inflation that would be $120 million in 2013 dollars.

The 2013 opening day payroll was $77 million, a decrease from $78 million in 2012.

The Dolan's pulled the biggest con job ever by making themselves seem like big spenders last year with Swisher/Bourne, but in reality they added no payroll.

The league is awash in money right now from the big markets to the small. Starting this year with the new national TV contracts each team got an extra $25 million as the rights fees doubled. We know the Dolan's cashed out of STO for a couple hundred million.

Yet there has not been any movement on the payroll front, and the cries of poverty are as strong as ever.

I don't begrudge an owner trying to make a profit, but when there is money pouring into teams pockets and everyone is spending it pleading poverty is insulting to the fans.

Cincinnati is hardly a big market, but they are going to have a payroll in the $110 million range. How can they make that kind of payroll work in a market our size and we can't?

We can never have a real window of contention if the Dolan's insist on handcuffing the payroll even after playoff seasons. I am sure some young kids will step up, but for God sakes I am tired of seeing our top starters leave the second they have some success because we refuse to pay anyone.

We are supposed to be contending this year, and yet the Masterson cloud will hang over this team all year. If he gets off to a fast start, how do you not trade him to try and get something before he walks? At the same time, how can you try and contend selling off your #1 starter?

It's just the same shit over and over and it sucks.

HitsRus;1582022 wrote:All this stuff about Ubaldo pitching well against 'terrible teams' is spin. He beat bona fide major leaguers and he was nails when we needed it the most. It would not have hurt to hedge against Masterson's departure by signing a veteran pitcher for what in today's market is cheap. You are not going to get to the World Series with a pitching staff composed of rookies and 2nd and 3rd year pitchers. If Masterson doesn't sign, you are back to looking/hoping for a #1 again. He gains leverage by the day.

Yea, I think he gave up more than 3ER's once after May 22nd. He had some pitch count problems at times, but 12M/yr is a cheap deal for him, especially as he would be in his "prime years" for the length of the contract. Just doesn't make much sense to let him go for that, unless maybe he just didn't want to be in Cleveland.

se-alum;1582030 wrote:Yea, I think he gave up more than 3ER's once after May 22nd. He had some pitch count problems at times, but 12M/yr is a cheap deal for him, especially as he would be in his "prime years" for the length of the contract. Just doesn't make much sense to let him go for that, unless maybe he just didn't want to be in Cleveland.

We are still operating as if $12 million today is what it was 15 years ago in the front office.

When you look at the deals Kazmir/Garza/Nolasco signed this off-season Ubaldo's deal is right in line with the going rate for mediocre starting pitching. Phil Hughes got $8 million a year and he was God awful last year.

I know they are going with the young guys this year, but what are the chances that those guys will be able to make the big jump in innings without running into dead arms at some point? That is a common problem with a lot of young guys, and we are banking heavily on good health and a smooth transition to throwing 180- 200 innings.

Ublado is likely only going to be a .500ish pitcher this year, but he has made 30+ starts 6 years in a row and can be counted on to be there for the most part. That is worth something in a rotation that is likely about to lose Masterson and is littered with young guys.

Masterson gets 1yr/9M deal.

IggyPride00;1581818 wrote:
This has the feeling of 2008 all over where coming off a turn around season they stand pat rather than making a push to try and capitalize on last season's momentum.

I am hoping you are wrong there. 2008 was an odd year. In my opinion, the 2007 team was the best team in baseball. If CC can close out game 5 at home vs Boston, they would have steamrolled Colorado just like Boston did.

In 2008, Victor got hurt. Pronk started the beginning of the end. I think we were all expecting big things from guys like Garko. Ben Francisco had some potential that never worked out. CC was 6-8 before he got traded. Paul Byrd regressed. Carmona won 17 games the year before and was top 5 in Cy Young voting, he was 8-7 in 2008.

That 2008 team should have been one of the best teams in baseball as it was and it just didn't happen. This year is totally different. The team in on the brink. Young guys who are poised for breakout seasons and a couple vets who should bounce back to form. They are just a couple of pieces away and I don't think the front office got it done this year. In fact, they let some good pieces get away.

I think we're 3 pitchers and 2 solid bats away.

Masterson gets 1yr/9M deal.

Ho Hum.....now start working on getting an extension.

I know they are going with the young guys this year, but what are the chances that those guys will be able to make the big jump in innings without running into dead arms at some point? That is a common problem with a lot of young guys, and we are banking heavily on good health and a smooth transition to throwing 180- 200 innings.

Truth.

They are just a couple of pieces away and I don't think the front office got it done this year. In fact, they let some good pieces get away.

More truth. I didn't expect much out of the front office after their big 'splurge' last year, but I certainly expected more than this on the heels of a great season. Damn right they let some good pieces get away....their best pitcher the second half of the year, ....one of the best set up guys in the game....and a pitcher they rehabbed and then let walk. The only change in the everyday players is Murphy....another 'value' signing of a guy coming off a bad year. The off season moves feel more like a rummage thru the bargain aisles at Goodwill, than the workings of a team hoping to contend.

IggyPride00;1582026 wrote:


It's just the same shit over and over and it sucks.

Truer words were never spoken.

In all fairness to the Tribe, one thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that the tribe will receive the O's first round draft pick (#17 overall) and the slot money that comes with it. That's great for the future....but not so much for us that are tired of waiting for next year.

Along the lines of what we have been talking about, here is Paul Hoynes take on this very subject from a column 3 days ago.

Hey, Hoynsie: So far this off-season seems a lot like two years ago when the "bottom feeding" ownership brought the likes of Casey Kotchman, Jack Hannahan, Shelly Duncan, Jose Lopez, et al to the team. They did all that after making a big splash by trading for Ubaldo Jimenez the summer before. Last off-season, Tribe fans were pleasantly surprised at the free agent signings of Nick Swisher and Michael Bourn. Even Mark Reynolds and Brett Meyers, who didn't pan out, showed fans that management was serious. Is this off-season another "pause" where management doesn't follow up on what it started by spending the necessary dollars to acquire top talent? – Keith Von Zup, Tannersville, Pa.

Hey, Keith: As you noted, the Indians were aware of the increased TV money coming their way this year and spent a large part of it in advance by signing Swisher, Bourn, Myers and Reynolds. Still, based on last year’s success, I thought it was important to continue to be aggressive on the free-agent market this winter to overtake Detroit and hold off Kansas City in the AL Central. I liked the David Murphy signing, but I expected them to do more.

Instead, the Indians are saying the current roster – particularly Swisher, Bourn, Murphy and Asdrubal Cabrera – can provide a spark with better performances. I have heard the Indians use that reasoning before and I don’t remember being overwhelmed by the results.

The bolding is mine, but I think that last sentence hits the nail on the head.

Almost everything went right last season and we played unworldly well against the league bottom feeders and got killed by the good teams.

We arguably are fielding a team with less talent this season as we had no real additions in the off-season and some big departures.

If we were getting thumped by the good teams last year, how are we supposed to close the gap by subtracting instead of adding to what we had?

A fast start is going to be imperative I think because if they get out slow. then talk will start to shift to whether or not you move Masterson while you can get something for him, and that would be a disaster given the team's history with that kind of thing. The fans just aren't going to go for it.

We also have zero pitching depth right now if we suddenly get a rash of injuries or dead arms. Salazar a major candidate for that, having never thrown more than 107 innings on any level in a season.

It has just been a wasted opportunity to create some buzz at a time when the city is itching to latch on to a winning team. Adding a piece or 2 would have gone a long way in the off-season to convincing a skeptical fan base that they are serious about actually contending.

Instead, the Indians are saying the current roster – particularly Swisher, Bourn, Murphy and Asdrubal Cabrera – can provide a spark with better performances.

...and that's not all. They are assuming that the young pitchers can maintain/improve upon last year's performance(minus UJ, Kazmir, and Joe Smith.)....an even more risky strategy.

HitsRus;1582212 wrote:...and that's not all. They are assuming that the young pitchers can maintain/improve upon last year's performance(minus UJ, Kazmir, and Joe Smith.)....an even more risky strategy.

You can usually bank on some of the young guys taking the next step, and some of the young guys being flashes in the pan and falling off the map. Not a good recipe when you didnt add any insurance for the assured steps back of many of the young guys on the staff.

Very frustrating.

On Pluto's podcast, the topic of Dolans being the worst owners in baseball came up. Terry at first was all "WHat? Noooo...." then could only name the marlins and the astros owners as being worse. Thanks dolans, you cheap POS

A thing that worries me is how long will Terry Francona's good will towards Cleveland continue if the team continually fails to provide him high quality players. He's not a stupid man or one that is desperate for a mangerial job.

At times I almost wish our front office wasn't so good because it allows the Dolans to be cheap and we'll still field a competitive team.

HitsRus;1582349 wrote:A thing that worries me is how long will Terry Francona's good will towards Cleveland continue if the team continually fails to provide him high quality players. He's not a stupid man or one that is desperate for a mangerial job.

Uncharted territory for him right now.

His previous 2 stops (Philly & Boston) he had access to all the resources he needed. This is the first time in his managerial career he basically has to make do with whatever scraps he is given.

I suspect the challenge of it in the beginning excited him, but if we take a step back this year I could easily see him grumbling next off-season.

The Dolan's bought themselves alot of good will and cover for their cheapness by hiring a name manager like Francona as it papers over the lack of payroll growth. The flip side to that though is if they don't step up he has the credibility/resume to bury them PR wise if they jerk him around and make him try and continually win with AAAA players and the yearly reclamation project we seem to pick up every off-season.

If Manny Acta bitches about losing his best players no one cares, if Francona does it its a totally different ball-game.

I don't see him going down that road unless this year takes a step back and then we see Masterson walk in the off-season. At some point enough has to be enough, and he's arguably the first guy since the Dolan's have owned the team that has the resume to put some legit heat on them if they jerk him around as the city would undeniably back Tito in an dispute over the front office's lack of commitment to being serious about contending.

Homer Bailey just signed for 6 years and $105 million.

Good thing they spent all that time haggling over an extra million or so in arbitration with Masterson instead of working out a long term deal.

Penny wise and pound foolish should be tattooed onto the Dolan's forehead as it is the official motto of the Cleveland Indians.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/cle/vying-for-spot-with-indians-rejuvenated-jeff-francoeur-able-to-smile-again-on-field?ymd=20140221&content_id=68077844&vkey=news_cle

great article about Jeff Francouer.
Personal problems can really affect a player's performance... remember Cliff Lee's bad season just before his Cy Young?
There may be a pretty good chance in catching lightning in a bottle here.

IggyPride00;1582406 wrote:Homer Bailey just signed for 6 years and $105 million.

Good thing they spent all that time haggling over an extra million or so in arbitration with Masterson instead of working out a long term deal.

Penny wise and pound foolish should be tattooed onto the Dolan's forehead as it is the official motto of the Cleveland Indians.

A very mediocre player making 17 million a year. No wonder a lot of people are disgusted with baseball.