Edward Snowden American hero or Government treason

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gut

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15,058 posts
Jun 11, 2013 4:39 PM
BoatShoes;1456134 wrote:^^I was going to say this. Doesn't happen much and I think it has lead to some good debate.
Well, it should be considering the practice dates to the Bush administration. And the recent scandals targeting conservatives only illustrates the potential for abuse. You have to be an ultra-partisan to think Republicans wouldn't (and haven't) done similar.

But I saw a poll the other day and it illustrates why these practices continue: like a 20pt swing between Dems and Repubs on their view of these issues based on who is in office.

Anyway, Rand Paul the last month is quietly arching his fingers and purring "Exxxxxceellllllentttt". The million dollar question may be if the Libertarian party can capitalize and organize to finally be relevant as a 3rd party, starting with the 2014 elections.
Jun 11, 2013 4:39pm
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QuakerOats

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8,740 posts
Jun 11, 2013 4:39 PM
Funny how all the attention is now on him, as opposed to the tyrannical 'leaders' in D.C.

If these recent and unimaginable crimes against Americans do not result in resignations beginning at the top, then something is terribly, terribly wrong in this country.
Jun 11, 2013 4:39pm
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gut

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15,058 posts
Jun 11, 2013 4:44 PM
QuakerOats;1456143 wrote: If these recent and unimaginable crimes against Americans do not result in resignations beginning at the top, then something is terribly, terribly wrong in this country.
Why do you expect resignations from this? It seems likely to be legal, although perhaps the Supreme Court will ultimately have something to say. It's more alarming, and potential for abuse greater...but in terms of legality/accountability it's really not on the same level as the other scandals. In other words, I think it's a rather benign overstepping (although we shall see) that needs to be addressed.
Jun 11, 2013 4:44pm
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gport_tennis

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1,796 posts
Jun 11, 2013 4:53 PM
Whistle blowers usually blow the whistle at the risk of being blackballed from the industry they are in.

It is likely that he would be tried on treason and given the death penalty. So I can understand why he would not sit by idly, while revealing the overstepping nature of the government
Jun 11, 2013 4:53pm
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gut

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15,058 posts
Jun 11, 2013 5:02 PM
gport_tennis;1456149 wrote: It is likely that he would be tried on treason and given the death penalty.
Good point. Although I would say the odds of that are slim to none. The American people would never stand for this guy getting the death penalty. Although it's probably unclear, at this stage, to say what, if any, protections he would receive as a whistleblower.
Jun 11, 2013 5:02pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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35,632 posts
Jun 11, 2013 5:17 PM
gut;1456140 wrote:It's really not. He's outing people for "breaking the law" while simultaneously breaking it himself and seeking to avoid the consequences. In other words, guilty of the same things he's railing against them for doing.

Assuming he's qualified and as good as his salary, he'll find an equivalent job. If he's not (and i.e. on his way out or being let go), it raises additional questions as to motive.

I agree he's trying to avoid the consequences, there's no disputing that. The point is he isn't just coming out and revealing Obama is secretly a woman and then bailing when he got that information illegally and illegally released it to the public. He called out an entire government and one of their agencies on some foul, and corrupt play. He is helping Americans see that their privacy is being extorted and it could potentially lead to some dangerous times. He did all that while sacrificing what he had in life. That's patriotic, not selfless.
Jun 11, 2013 5:17pm
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queencitybuckeye

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7,117 posts
Jun 11, 2013 5:21 PM
gut;1456151 wrote: The American people would never stand for this guy getting the death penalty.
If our leaders cared even a little about the will of the people, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Jun 11, 2013 5:21pm
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Jun 11, 2013 5:25 PM
gut;1456142 wrote:Well, it should be considering the practice dates to the Bush administration. And the recent scandals targeting conservatives only illustrates the potential for abuse. You have to be an ultra-partisan to think Republicans wouldn't (and haven't) done similar.

But I saw a poll the other day and it illustrates why these practices continue: like a 20pt swing between Dems and Repubs on their view of these issues based on who is in office.

Anyway, Rand Paul the last month is quietly arching his fingers and purring "Exxxxxceellllllentttt". The million dollar question may be if the Libertarian party can capitalize and organize to finally be relevant as a 3rd party, starting with the 2014 elections.
Haha. We're a winner-take-all system so I doubt we'll see the libertarian party rise up over the Republican or Democratic parties but it'll be interesting to see if more libertarian/Rand Paulish type Republicans on National Security issues get elected in the wake of all this.
Jun 11, 2013 5:25pm
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Belly35

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9,716 posts
Jun 11, 2013 5:27 PM
ptown_trojans_1;1456040 wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Where the hell was this for Bradley Manning?
Explain to me the difference?
Or, what about Daniel Ellsberg who released the Pentagon Papers?
Or, Joe Darby, who released info on Abu Ghraib?

I largely agree with you, we need people to speak out against what may be awful policies, but I failed to read the same language and argument during the Wikileaks, or other releases of information.

The other examples are different. Some for profit, others where military security information to foreign countries, endangered innocent people, effecting national security. Where this is a direct unconstitutional act against the citizens of American, not for profit and to expose goverment agenda illegally gain information without the concent of the courts or the individial this is treason against the populist of our nation.
Jun 11, 2013 5:27pm
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gut

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15,058 posts
Jun 11, 2013 5:30 PM
queencitybuckeye;1456157 wrote:If our leaders cared even a little about the will of the people, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
When things become public, only then do they become political. How to deal with this guy would be a very sensitive issue. Secretly they (elected officials) probably hope he gets asylum somewhere and remains oversees.
Jun 11, 2013 5:30pm
G

gut

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Jun 11, 2013 5:31 PM
BoatShoes;1456160 wrote:Haha. We're a winner-take-all system so I doubt we'll see the libertarian party rise up over the Republican or Democratic parties but it'll be interesting to see if more libertarian/Rand Paulish type Republicans on National Security issues get elected in the wake of all this.
I don't disagree, but for the first time Americans (non-libertarians, anyway) are starting to pay real attention to Rand, and he's got the bully pulpit.
Jun 11, 2013 5:31pm
G

gut

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Jun 11, 2013 5:32 PM
SportsAndLady;1456154 wrote:That's patriotic, not selfless.
Well stated
Jun 11, 2013 5:32pm
ptown_trojans_1's avatar

ptown_trojans_1

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Jun 11, 2013 9:43 PM
Belly35;1456161 wrote:The other examples are different. Some for profit, others where military security information to foreign countries, endangered innocent people, effecting national security. Where this is a direct unconstitutional act against the citizens of American, not for profit and to expose goverment agenda illegally gain information without the concent of the courts or the individial this is treason against the populist of our nation.
Huh, Bradley Manning is making the same argument.
I agree not all cases are alike. But, seems like one's man patriot is another man's criminal.
ccrunner609;1456247 wrote:the guy only worked there for 3 months.......was making serious bank. He is working for bigger fish.
Obviously you have no idea how federal contractors are paid.
Jun 11, 2013 9:43pm
ptown_trojans_1's avatar

ptown_trojans_1

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Jun 11, 2013 9:46 PM
queencitybuckeye;1456157 wrote:If our leaders cared even a little about the will of the people, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Oh, isn't that easy in hindsight.
But, it's not that simple, world is more complex, and blurry.
Not saying this was right. Just saying I can easily see the rational.

We have been doing this since WWII. Only now since the world is more connected, it has has impacted everyone.
Jun 11, 2013 9:46pm
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

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Jun 12, 2013 1:13 AM
Belly35;1456161 wrote:The other examples are different. Some for profit, others where military security information to foreign countries, endangered innocent people, effecting national security. Where this is a direct unconstitutional act against the citizens of American, not for profit and to expose goverment agenda illegally gain information without the concent of the courts or the individial this is treason against the populist of our nation.
illegally gain information? these documents were signed off on by judges. checks and balances at its finest. you may the think the program is wrong or whatever, but illegal no.
Jun 12, 2013 1:13am
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

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Jun 12, 2013 1:29 AM
I cant find the article i was reading this afternoon. but it basically said how he went about it all the wrong way and blew any chance at having whistleblower status.
Jun 12, 2013 1:29am
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gut

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Jun 12, 2013 3:46 AM
Glory Days;1456499 wrote:I cant find the article i was reading this afternoon. but it basically said how he went about it all the wrong way and blew any chance at having whistleblower status.
But still begs the question how he could have had "whistleblower" status in the first place if nothing was illegal.

I have no idea how a legal, albeit likely unconstitutional, practice gets a determination from the Supreme Court when everything is classified top-secret.
Jun 12, 2013 3:46am
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QuakerOats

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Jun 12, 2013 10:02 AM
gut;1456145 wrote:Why do you expect resignations from this?

I didn't say I expect them; I implied they are warranted. And I did not mean to imply that resignations should stem only from this most recent government overreach, vs. the multitude of emerging scandals involving abuse of power by this regime.

If Richard Nixon resigned over attempts to dig up mud on his political opponents, what should happen when tyrannical politicians and bureaucrats use the force of government to go after real Americans?
Jun 12, 2013 10:02am
Heretic's avatar

Heretic

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Jun 12, 2013 11:26 AM
ptown_trojans_1;1456275 wrote:Obviously you have no idea how federal contractors are paid.
Which means this is like virtually every other topic.
Jun 12, 2013 11:26am
G

gut

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Jun 12, 2013 4:23 PM
Can you be convicted as a traitor if the law/order you broke was unconstitutional?

Also, is treason tried only by military tribunal? I don't imagine 12 jurors would convict him - tailor made case for jury nullification.
Jun 12, 2013 4:23pm
G

gut

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Jun 12, 2013 9:57 PM
Hmmmm, well, now he's talking about the US cyber-spying efforts...definitely starting to venture into "traitor" territory
Jun 12, 2013 9:57pm
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

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Jun 13, 2013 2:07 AM
gut;1457002 wrote:Hmmmm, well, now he's talking about the US cyber-spying efforts...definitely starting to venture into "traitor" territory
yeah i think either he is hoping to get hong kong and china on his side by playing to them or there is more to it than just one man exposing an intelligence gathering program.

i also saw that russia is willing to give him asylum.
Jun 13, 2013 2:07am