Manhattan Buckeye;1596241 wrote:Shaka Smart missed his window. Seems like a great guy and if he loves VCU and Richmond (even though the school is halfway in the hood) good for him, but with Coach Bennett at UVA and Virginia Tech's new hire in Buzz Williams VCU won't be able to recruit anyone in-state unless they are marginally academic qualifiers - and even if they could would have to recruit against other ACC schools. Their facilities are adequate, not great. The campus is improving, but it is still depressing to be around. Don't see how he can keep up VCU's success - they were grossly overseeded as a 5 this year based on past results.

I dont know, VCU doesnt go after the types of kids that Virginia will, at all. Buzz likes the athletes and playground style a bit, but nothing like VCU. Smart goes after 3*s who are quick, athletic and have great hands on defense. He wont be going head to head with almost anyone in the ACC, imo, for a recruit.

I DO think he missed his window to pick whatever school he wanted, but not for the same reasons you mention.

As for this year, the A-10 was solid, and VCU had a solid year. No issue with a 5 seed. They were uncharacteristic in blowing a double digit lead with 2 minutes to go. UCLA wouldve dont the same to them as they did to SFA, imo, but that was just a bad bracket match-up for them Rd2.

Well they deserved it more than St. Louis did, geez, I don't usually gripe about seedings but UNC/UK/L'ville should have an argument being under seeded, with St. Louis, and even Oklahoma being so over seeded?

And for that matter Tennessee is probably one of the most dangerous "first round" seeds in tourney history. Michigan should win, but that's going to be a good one IMO.

Steve Masiello to South Florida. Eh.

Is Rick Pitino going to cry about it in case they ever play Louisville?

It's funny that Buzz Williams said the reason he left Marquette is because he saw the window on that program's success closing quickly and didn't think it would ever be Elite Eight level again (obviously a reference to his 2013 regional final run). So he said he got out while the "the getting was good."

And yet, Shaka seems content on staying at VCU. It may end up a disastrous move if VCU can't make another long NCAA run in the coming years.

Manhattan Buckeye;1596250 wrote:And for that matter Tennessee is probably one of the most dangerous "first round" seeds in tourney history. Michigan should win, but that's going to be a good one IMO.

I'd rank Tennessee right there with 2002 Missouri, led by Kareem Rush, which got a 12th seed and made it all the way to the Elite Eight, where they ended up just six points shy of the Final Four.

Yeah MB is 100% right, if VT gets it going VCU is going to be seriously impacted. Just look at Martelli, when St Joes had that great stretch around the turn of the century he stayed put and they fell apart really until rebounding this season. The thing Smart doesn't seem to understand is it is almost impossible to maintain a high level at mid major, it wasn't that long ago that Southern Illinois and Northern Iowa basically ran the MVC, now they aren't even mentioned

Classyposter58;1596307 wrote:Yeah MB is 100% right, if VT gets it going VCU is going to be seriously impacted. Just look at Martelli, when St Joes had that great stretch around the turn of the century he stayed put and they fell apart really until rebounding this season. The thing Smart doesn't seem to understand is it is almost impossible to maintain a high level at mid major, it wasn't that long ago that Southern Illinois and Northern Iowa basically ran the MVC, now they aren't even mentioned

Those are terrible example since their coaches left...in other words, the EXACT opposite of what is going on at VCU.

On top of that, you had N. Iowa be great for 3 years (2004-2006). They didnt make the the tourney for a whopping 2 seasons and followed it up with an appearance in 2009 and their BEST run to date when they beat Kansas in the 2nd RD in 2010. They have now gone 4 years without making the tournament.

Side Note: Holy fuck, its been 4 years since Ali Farokmanesh (sp) was the hottest name in college basketball.

In order to make a valid comparison, you would have to use a mid-major who has had a coach stick around. St. Joes is a decent example. Decent in the sense Martelli didnt move on after the perfect season, but not a great example as he has had success there. They have made the tournament 6 times since they first did so in 1997. While they dont dominate every year, they are in now way, shape or form obsolete in the CBK world.

Another example would be Mark Few. He took over for Monson, but has been able to maintain a level not reached by many. He has the luxury of recruiting an area where there isnt a ton of competition. The, opposite would be said of Martelli.

Id put VCU in the middle of the two. Its easier to recruit in Virginia than Philly, but harder than Washington state. But, its a lot harder to find mid-majors who fall off the map when the coach stays than you would imagine.

I'd argue it's much easier to recruit in Virginia, given the proximity to the east coast and having a few big name prep schools in the area. Recruiting at St. Joe's isn't easy, considering the type of school AND the sheer volume of competition in the city of Philadelphia. At least in a city like Richmond, outside of Richmond and VCU, you're not left with many other options for locals who simply want to play at home or who are underrated and want to prove themselves.

I think Shaka will do well and continue his run at VCU. He might not get back to another Final Four, just as Mark Few may never do much more than the Sweet 16 or making the field. Still, Few has made plenty of cash and has nearly unlimited job security. He literally can cash in a few mil a year at Gonzaga until he wants to quit. Combine that with a team every 5 years or so CAPABLE of a Final Four (albeit, his best teams have underachieved), you're sitting pretty.

But, without making a Final Four or any real deep NCAA success, could Few leave for North Carolina if that's the job he wanted? I doubt it. I'd be hesitant to hire a guy like that who has clearly had some elite teams and not done much with it on a tournament level.

It'll be interesting if Shaka is as hot a commodity several years down the road if he hasn't taken VCU back to a Sweet 16 since that 2011 run. He will probably maintain at least moderate success -- competing for A10 titles and NCAA appearances -- if he decides to stay, but will that be enough for his dream job down the road, if he in fact is holding out for one? Not sure. Time will tell.

"I think Shaka will do well and continue his run at VCU. He might not get back to another Final Four,"

He won't, and that it is his choice, if he wanted to go to Illinois he could have but chose to stay in Richmond and no one should judge him for that. VCU is the east coast version of Gonzaga. Some great tourney runs, but they can't produce the talent. Not with UVA 70 miles west in a world class arena, or the DC area schools (Gtown, Maryland), and even the tobacco road schools swallowing up the best recruits.

It's the same with Gregg Marshall to the jobs linked to. N.C. State, Alabama, Illinois, LSU, many, many other middle tier schools that have had openings since then.

My question is...lets use N.C. State or Alabama? When was their last Final Four? Bottom line, VCU and Gonzaga have just about the same odds of getting there than those schools do. Especially if you're a "name" mid-major who can get some big time games in the OOC and who doesn't necessarily have to win their conference to get in the big dance. In a way, you have the best of both worlds.

Name a top recruit who VCU was after? They don't compete for the same level, and in some cases, same type (Virginia, Georgetown).

Also, on the few front, since that's a valid comparison...We STILL talk about him each year. A lot less now because he clearly isn't leaving, but if he was he would easily be mentioned with all those schools.

Now, take another hot name du jour (Grant, Monson, McCaffery, Groce) etc. Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more. Now, Groce is early but trending down. The others left for bigger jobs that weren't the biggest. Their careers have essentially plateaued and bother ever came from it.

There is a ton of days to suggest leaving a mid major is a terrible career move. It can work out, obviosuly (Matta, Miller, Pearl). But being cautious and smart is, IMO, a good move. It's 50/50 at least...

Azubuike24;1596337 wrote:It's the same with Gregg Marshall to the jobs linked to. N.C. State, Alabama, Illinois, LSU, many, many other middle tier schools that have had openings since then.

My question is...lets use N.C. State or Alabama? When was their last Final Four? Bottom line, VCU and Gonzaga have just about the same odds of getting there than those schools do. Especially if you're a "name" mid-major who can get some big time games in the OOC and who doesn't necessarily have to win their conference to get in the big dance. In a way, you have the best of both worlds.

Yeah, if I'm a coach at an elite mid-major looking to move on, it's either NBA (ala Stevens) or to an elite major team. Going from VCU/Gonzaga to NC State or Alabama (to use your examples of average/decent major schools) is at best a lateral move and more likely a no-win situation. Just because your name is Shaka Smart and you kicked ass at VCU doesn't mean you're stepping into a place like NC State and suddenly beating out Duke and UNC for elite recruits, which means they'll likely stay as that state's "little brother" in the ACC and you'll likely wind up fired a few years down the road.

It's not so much of a case of staying in a comfort zone as knowing you've built a winner and a lot of those jobs will come with higher expectations, but it being very doubtful you'll consistently get the resources to make them.

Heretic;1596341 wrote:Yeah, if I'm a coach at an elite mid-major looking to move on, it's either NBA (ala Stevens) or to an elite major team. Going from VCU/Gonzaga to NC State or Alabama (to use your examples of average/decent major schools) is at best a lateral move and more likely a no-win situation. Just because your name is Shaka Smart and you kicked ass at VCU doesn't mean you're stepping into a place like NC State and suddenly beating out Duke and UNC for elite recruits, which means they'll likely stay as that state's "little brother" in the ACC and you'll likely wind up fired a few years down the road.

It's not so much of a case of staying in a comfort zone as knowing you've built a winner and a lot of those jobs will come with higher expectations, but it being very doubtful you'll consistently get the resources to make them.

Smart wasn't offered just the N.C. State job, though. He was offered UCLA.

As I said earlier in the thread, however, he's a Midwest guy and UCLA is a shitty program for being the most successful NCAA Tournament team in history -- horrible fans, third most followed team in LA behind Lakers and Clippers, and the Hollywood culture is just an animal that some coaches may not want to deal with.

But it's one of the Super Six schools in college basketball, and Smart would have had all the resources he needed to annually compete on a Final Four level. My guess is he is holding out for UNC. We'll see if that pans out six or seven years down the road from now. I doubt Roy leaves before then -- unless for health reasons -- because I doubt K does either.

Unlike Few, I don't get the impression that Smart is content where he is. He just doesn't seem the type. Will be interesting to follow the trajectory of his career.

I don't think smart is content, and that has never been my implication. I think he is smart, though (no pun intended), to wait for the job he wants. No sense in taking ncst and failing when he can keep winning for however long it takes to land unc. Similar (though not as long) as what miller did. Turned down some schools and then jumped at Arizona. I
listed a few guys who have jumped to early and failed. I think the new college basketball allows guys like smart, Stevens, etc to wait around a bit longer and have their choice. Mid major success is easier to maintain at the moment.

As for UCLA, good riddance. Alford has done a nice job year 1, but, while
I consider it a blue blood 6, I don't think I put it in my top 20 jobs lol. Very good decision by Shaka to stay put over UCLA, IMO.

I'll also chime in. UCLA isn't a great job. There are half-a-dozen "non-blueblood" jobs I'd take over UCLA. Give me a job at a huge football powerhouse with a ton of money (Ohio State, Texas, Florida, Michigan, etc...) on the same level as UCLA. I'm pretty sure their 4 coaches since the 90's would probably agree...3 of who were forced out. Gone are the Wooden days where UCLA will be a consistent powerhouse where the coach can retire there if he wants.

Yeah, that's my stance on UCLA. They were an elite program, but recent history moves them down into the "very good" spot. Except with a fan base who demands eliteness, leading to, as Azu mentioned, 3-of-4 coaches getting forced out since the 90s because they were good at being good, but not at being elite to the degree it's demanded.

EDIT: And, when it comes to being smart about what higher-profile job to take, if you're a coach at a regional power on one coast, it isn't always the best decision to move to a national power on the other coast; especially if you feel that by waiting a bit, you'll have a good shot at getting the job at a national power on your coast, where you likely already have a lot of recruiting inroads.

UCLA is behind, inpo:

Duke
UNC
NCST
Florida
Villanova
Indiana
Ohio St.
Mich. St.
Michigan
Arizona
Texas
Kansas
Oklahoma St.
Kentucky
Louisville
UCONN
Virginia

I just am not sure I can win easier or more at UCLA than I can at ANY of the schools I listed above.

As a coach you need to strike when the iron is hot, and Shaka, if he had any intentions/plans on "moving up" he should have done it already. He may still be on the fringe of the new, hot coach but definantly on the downward slide. He shoulda left already.....that is of course if he truly does plan on climbing the ladder.

Laley, since you are the most intelligent hoops person on the OC, what do you make of the three guys transferring out of IU, and Vonleh leaving? Before the season I thought he would be a one and done, and he showed spurts that he could be great, but would be beneficial if he would stay another year or two. Maybe not financially as he will be a very high pick, but in terms of devlopement I think he would be better off staying. The guys that are transferring arent earth shattering, but still....

Also, you speak of UCLA. One of my all time favs was Stevel Alford. Remember watching him on TV in HS, of course at IU and been following him at every coaching stop from Manchester through UCLA. He has done well at every stop. Iowa he did OK, but no coach other than Dr Tom Davis has really done great there.

If Crean cannot get this team over the hump, would you welcome Steve back to IU? I think that he would leave UCLA for one job.

With the right coach, there are another 12-15 jobs that could elevate themselves to UCLA. Again, some of the football schools also located in talent hotbeds. LSU, Oregon, etc...

thavoice;1596366 wrote:If Crean cannot get this team over the hump, would you welcome Steve back to IU? I think that he would leave UCLA for one job.

I'd laugh Laley off this board if he says yes. That would be a disaster for IU. Why would you bring in a former player, who made his name under a coach who is shunned in Bloomington and who has already failed to deliver in two prior jobs, one in the same conference?

Alford is a decent coach. Not great, not terrible. Wanting him back at IU would be an admission that they are average. Average results would likely follow.

Lute Olson took Iowa to a Final Four and probably would've dominated the Big Ten had he stayed.

Just not sold on Alford, but he's done a nice job this year at UCLA. We won't have an accurate picture of his time there, however, for another three or four years.

That said, I'm going against my better instincts here, but I think the Bruins, despite Alford, are going to beat Florida on Thursday or at least make it very interesting.

reclegend22;1596379 wrote:Lute Olson took Iowa to a Final Four and probably would've dominated the Big Ten had he stayed.

Just not sold on Alford, but he's done a nice job this year at UCLA. We won't have an accurate picture of his time there, however, for another three or four years.

That said, I'm going against my better instincts here, but I think the Bruins, despite Alford, are going to beat Florida on Thursday or at least make it very interesting.

I hope your better instincts are the right ones because in my pool, that would be the final nail in my coffin.