pickpanther;1399658 wrote:Doesn't the responsibility of improving apply to both wrestlers? Just because a wrestlers is winning, he is not obligated to work harder than the other wrestler. That seems to be the way that a lot of refs see it. Why is the wrestler in the front headlock not doing anything. It is usually pretty obvious when a wrestlers is trying to get out of a position like a front headlock or when they are also hanging on.

Here is another way of looking at it. If a wrestlers is up by one point and they are stuck in a front headlock(defensive position) and neither wrestler is improving position, are they stalling then? It seems to me, it does not who is doing what. The main criteria a lot of refs use to determine stalling is if a wrestler is winning the match. I see the exact same refs call it both ways. Just like top and bottom stalling. If a wrestler is riding tough and winning, he is stalling. If a wrestler is on bottom being ridden tough, he is also stalling.

This!!!
I see alot of wrestlers who are losing stall knowing they are going to hit the kid who is winnjng with the stall.
How many times do we see the winning kid on top let the kid stand up and drop down to a single leg and get a stalemate eating up 15_20 seconds. I would rather let the kid ride legs than see that.

Just a reminder....my class starts tonight at Dublin Davis Middle School...for any and all! You dont have to want to be a referee...in fact...youy are more than welcome to sit in on any or all classes...just to learn. I show a lot of video and talk about lots of situations. My class is not reading the rule book...we go over the book but I know everyone can read. Its about mechanics and handling mat situations...which is really what being a good ref is all about. Want to know the rule book and pass the rest? Read. My classes are a lot more than that.

As far as stalling goes...the reason that usually the one that gets called for stalling is the one who is winning..is because he is winning...and hanging on. Not all time...not every match...not for a lot of reasons. If a kid is winning by 10 points...he probably has done all the work anyway and isnt stalling. Coasting some? Sure...I will give them that.
As far as the top guy riding...if he is "riding"...it has to be in conjunction with trying to score. Riding...by itself...is not attempting to score. If the bottom guys head is on the mat...arms in... elbows in... that's a great indicator that he is either getting his butt whipped or stalling because his lungs hurt. Or...maybe the top guy is real good and he cant get out. Lots of reasons. Not all are stalling.
Stalling occurs when someone is "cheating".... that's why we have it...and why we call it.

bump_and_run;1399675 wrote:uhhh... you did not watch the video. the move WAS working. He blocked the arm, got his head in the hole and was reaching for the ankle over the course of five seconds or less. there was no stop in the action and he was continually improving. he was executing the move. the ref stopped it as he was reaching for the ankle. you are analyzing this as if they were sliding around the mat for 30 seconds with no imporvement. you are wrong.

And to me, you appear to be working backward from the conclusion that it was a bad call and shaping facts to justify it. The call was fine.

Dad4Sports;1399622 wrote:From earlier in this thread....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRqQ-Geacws&feature=youtu.be

Going by that video I agree with Refman that it was a quick whistle.

pickpanther;1399658 wrote:Doesn't the responsibility of improving apply to both wrestlers? Just because a wrestlers is winning, he is not obligated to work harder than the other wrestler. That seems to be the way that a lot of refs see it. Why is the wrestler in the front headlock not doing anything. It is usually pretty obvious when a wrestlers is trying to get out of a position like a front headlock or when they are also hanging on.

Here is another way of looking at it. If a wrestlers is up by one point and they are stuck in a front headlock(defensive position) and neither wrestler is improving position, are they stalling then? It seems to me, it does not who is doing what. The main criteria a lot of refs use to determine stalling is if a wrestler is winning the match. I see the exact same refs call it both ways. Just like top and bottom stalling. If a wrestler is riding tough and winning, he is stalling. If a wrestler is on bottom being ridden tough, he is also stalling.

Remember too when talking about stalling, especially in a top/bottom situation, there is the "clause" in the rule book that says any wrestler who is being overpowered by the opposing wrestler is not stalling. I would consider the man on bottom who is stuck in the front headlock in a position where he is being overpowered. I would give him a little more leeway when it comes to stalling.

This idea was evident in the 126 DIII finals with Nelson. Nelson was working front headlocks and underhooks. The ref initially hit Nelson with stalling. It eventually became apparent to the official that in fact it was the Greenview kid who locking onto the elbows of Nelson and not allowing him to move out of this position. The Greenview kid was then hit for stalling after another front headlock situation.

Your example of "If a wrestler is riding tough and winning, he is stalling. If a wrestler is on bottom being ridden tough, he is also stalling." is a perfect example of what I mean.

The Wrestler on top's objective is to create angles to make a turn. He isn't allowed to "ride". He is however allowed to hold the other man down, including "sitting on the hips", as long as he creates angles that can result in a turn. As long as the bottom man is attempting to get to his base,feet, or create a reversal situation he is not stalling. If he can't do those things because the top man is preventing him from doing so as he works for a turn, the bottom man can not be hit for stalling.

Refman;1399685 wrote:As far as the top guy riding...if he is "riding"...it has to be in conjunction with trying to score. Riding...by itself...is not attempting to score. If the bottom guys head is on the mat...arms in... elbows in... that's a great indicator that he is either getting his butt whipped or stalling because his lungs hurt. Or...maybe the top guy is real good and he cant get out. Lots of reasons. Not all are stalling.

GREAT POINT, Refman! Worth repeating several times at your meeting, in my opinion. Too few people, in my opinion, understand that the guy on top is frequently guilty of stalling as well. I see it a lot in the heavier weights (220, 285) whereby the bottom can't get up due to the wieght on his back, has his head will put an elbow out, but everyone is yelling for him to be called for stalling when the top guy in just riding. Top guy has to work to improve and create angles or he is more guilty of stalling than the guy who is overpowered on the bottom.