cruiser_96;1396719 wrote:tl;dr

Yes??? :huh:

Thanks Reffy. Nice to hear from someone that makes the difference.

Thanks for chiming in, Refman. Good stuff. I think the bottom line here is, yeah, of course kids get screwed. I'm not perfect at my job all the time, that's for sure, and i dont' expect refs to be perfect at theirs.

But there are times that I DO have to be perfect at my job...or I lose my job. No. Questions. Asked. That hasn't happened because I'm smart enough to know when those times are and once i've identified them, I overcompensate, ask for help, plan for contingencies and basically erect as many safety nets as I can to protect myself and my clients and the family i feed.

It is not asking too much to demand the same level of accountability and professionalism from those people who are entrusted with the dreams of children.

For me, that's the real point, and you NAILED it when you said "that cockiness has to stop." the lead refs need to lose the ego. we need better procedures for FIXING controversial calls. we need assistant refs who are empowered. we need a mat side appeal process that works. yes, of course it will take time from the match, but it is better to get it right than end the wrong kid's career a tournament too early.

As for some of the matches that we saw at Darby...those that are so lopsided that the bad calls reach ludicrous levels -- not just one, two or three calls that go the wrong way, but a half-dozen or more that go against the same wrestler. These are the ones that tie a knot in your gut that lasts for days...

Anyway, thanks again for chiming in.

(And to the guy who played back the old line "if you dont' like it, then become a ref"...please. If your attorney drops the ball at your DUI hearing and you go to county for six months, do you want to hear him brush it off with "if you don't like it, then become a lawyer"? if your pharmacist gives you a coagulant instead of sildenafil citrate and ruins your Friday night, are you going to just forget it when he says, "ha! maybe you should sign up a class and mix up your own drugs!"?)

Refman,

You're post was great. One thing that you admitted makes a lot of sense. You mentioned old timers and having a difficult time asking them to step down; however, that needs to happen. At the end of the day, it's all about fairness to the athletes that train very hard to achieve their goals. As a coach, that has endured two extremely painful officiated matches at the district tournament over the past two years from the same official, it's hard not to be emotional about someone that denies kids a trip to the state tournament because of the official's hostility and/or incompetency. The improvements you've made on your end to help officials improve is admirable.

Good stuff refman.

Question?

Who ranks the officials? The other officials?
I would think you also need to be evaluated by coaches. Both!

I have been reading, and have to throw in my 1 cent...

You say there are good officials coming up... from where? This was one of the worst season I have had in 10 years at the middle school regarding officials. I agree, egos must stop. The other issue is positioning! I understand middle school wrestlers are ALL over the place and very unpredictable, but that might mean you have to hustle and get in the right position earn your pay.

The other issue is this...I know the rules say that if a coach challenges a judgment call, by rule the ref is supposed to ding a point correct (unsportsmanlike, something like that)? I go to varsity matches, have seen coaches question these calls and NEVER get dinged. In the middle school we have several refs that are starting to do this. I'm sure the point is to deter people questioning their perfect calls. But if this rule is to be enforced, it needs to be done at EVERY level and by EVERY official. It is not consistent or fair for a ref to pick and choose which rules he will enforce. Especially at the middle school level where people are learning (wrestler, official, and coaches...I've been in the middle school over 10 years, I'm still learning).

Another issue is consistency, but that is another chapter I don't want to rant about.

And no, I don't have time to attend the spring officials class, my kids are in sports and I have other obligations. That being said, let me know when you meet. If I'm free I would love to sit in on meetings and give my input or sit, listen, and learn.

Cthelites...great question. The answer is difficult due to the fact that the process has no transparency...I will explain. This comes from OHSAA:

Ratings Information

Ratings have been removed. The average coaches’ ratings have been removed from every official’s home page. The coaches’ ratings information will be replaced with more complete and usable information at a later date. For the time being, you have been provided with a description of the tournament selection process utilized for the sports of football, volleyball, soccer, basketball, ice hockey, wrestling, baseball and softball. All other sports operate under a somewhat different system. There are six components to the OHSAA officials tournament selection process: average coach ratings; a favorite 15 officials list from athletic directors; a favorite 15 list from assigners; a favorite 15/30 list from local associations (those with 125 members or less provide us with 15 names); a favorite 15 officials list from each district athletic board member and a favorite 15 list from the OHSAAClass.OHSAA. The coaches ratings average is used as a multiplier with the number of times an official was placed on a favorite 15 list. This is the official’s raw score and is used to rank officials in each district from highest to lowest. The rankings determine the level of tournament at which an official is eligible. There is a pool of officials eligible for the state tournament and all levels below. There is a pool of officials eligible for the regional tournaments and below. And there is a pool of officials eligible for the sectional/district tournaments and below. Lastly, there are a number of officials listed as alternates for sectional tournaments. The pool of officials is approximately three times larger than the number of officials needed to work at any given level of tournaments. All sectional and district tournament assignments are made under the supervision/direction of the district athletic boards. The regional and state tournament assignments are made under the supervision/direction of the OHSAA Commissioner’s Office. Actual assignments are made after considering additional factors such as diversity (geographic location, race, gender, and years of experience), type of regular season schedule, availability and, in some sports, position officiated. State rules interpreters and others who are knowledgeable about officials are consulted and assist in the assigning process Now...as you see, no referee has an idea where they rank. Beau Rugg told me in a face to face meeting that he is working on bringing back the ratings so each ref can see where they stand. Also...I doubt that many high school coaches sit and talk with their AD about a refs performance...and if that gets posted to OHSAA. OCC coaches have no idea where their officials come from except from a "list". Who has that list? Who decides who is on it? No one really knows. I know Nevin Taylor, the OCC assignor has a list...but not sure where that came from. Cal Adams works from a list, but that list may not be updated with the younger guys on it. The system needs to be revamped. Coaches should be ranking refs....but not right after a kid loses by one point because of a TD that the coach thought should of been called versus knowing the criteria for such a call. Huskerdoc....my spring classes will start Mon March 4th at 7pm at Dublin Davis. Please do come when you can. FYI...we lose more refs to "abuse" by middle school coaches than any other reason. I know...I ask guys why arent you reffing any more and they tell me they are tired of the antics of the coaches...not all but some and that's enough for some guys. The rule for coach misconduct/USC is this basically: If a coach goes to the table and questions a call, that os coach misconduct, if it is "civil". From the chair...or if at the table the coach gets to arguing or other than a simple question...it then elevates to a 1 pt USC call. 2 USC is removal. Also...you are spot on when yu mention you see coaches scream and holler and nothing is done. That irritates me greatly. Why is it done? The ref doesn't have the balls to make the appropriate call...its that simple. Why else don't they do it? Coaches know which refs they can pound on and which they cant.

I see what you mean Refman. I should be able to make some of the classes.
I have also, tried to "adjust" the way I speak to refs...I have been trying to ask "what is your criteria" for whatever situation I am contesting. I have learned it is still a losing battle. Because a lot of stuff that I and I'm sure other coaches argue or question are the judgments of the officials. Either being out of position or just simply wrong on their judgment, or totally inconsistent with their judgments.

Thanks to a new Ipad, I might record every match I can next year and add the matches to Hudl. That way if I have issues, I can use the Hudl and maybe get officials to see them.

I have a lot of coaches download matches on Hudl to me...great too. With Tier 2....I want to show their matches to them and critique...its the only way they see their mistakes.

Refman;1397072 wrote:I have a lot of coaches download matches on Hudl to me...great too. With Tier 2....I want to show their matches to them and critique...its the only way they see their mistakes.

...and/or their strengths!!!

If anyone would be so inclined, I would appreciate some honest feedback on whether either of these was a proper stalemate call. Both calls were made probably 20 seconds apart with around 30 seconds to a minute to go in the third period of the go-to match with the Watkins wrestler up 5-4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wjhqKolnrQ&feature=youtu.be

Regardless of your opinion on the calls -- whether they were correct or incorrect -- thanks in advance.

I was there. Watched that match. Several questionable calls IMO.

The first one was not a stale mate, second one could be, but I wouldn't have called it that fast...but I'm a coach, what do I know?

A little quick on the trigger, perhaps, but not "blown" calls by any means.

First one was too quick ... clearly lots of action still going on, with both wrestlers trying to capitalize. Second one I could live with.

That said ... that is the ref that was on the mat darn near every time I saw a wrong / VERY questionable call.

Well...to get a true picture of the action...start the video prior to the stalemate action...that way there is a clearer view of how long it really is...just sayin.

Refman;1397845 wrote:Well...to get a true picture of the action...start the video prior to the stalemate action...that way there is a clearer view of how long it really is...just sayin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRqQ-Geacws&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for the extended version

Ok...my view based on being a wrestler, coach and ref...all combined into a 3rd party.

I don't have a issue here with the stalemate call. Yes...it could of gone on longer but without knowing score or time, referees at times will stalemate a situation to keep time and opportunity, from slipping away in a tight close match.
I see 2 kids, without "great" technical skill....Hilliard kid hits a single, cant finish it, Watkins kid tries to bowl him over.. (wonder why he didnt step over and try to spladle, but hey... that's me). Watkins gets a head and arm....and in the process of circling in..gets stalemated. Ok my advice....finish quicker, or at least get some sort of intensity going.

Thanks, Refman. Your feedback is sincerely appreciated.

It all comes back to this, try not to wrestle a close match with davidson!

Their coaches are loud, intimadating, and knowledgable! But most of all they always go to bat for their guy in the close matches. Years of rapport gets you places everywhere, wrestling is no exception

The2cKDude;1398032 wrote:It all comes back to this, try not to wrestle a close match with davidson!

Their coaches are loud, intimadating, and knowledgable! But most of all they always go to bat for their guy in the close matches. Years of rapport gets you places everywhere, wrestling is no exception

Well said! I agree 100%. They fight for their guys to the very end.

Refman;1397921 wrote:Thanks for the extended version

Ok...my view based on being a wrestler, coach and ref...all combined into a 3rd party.

I don't have a issue here with the stalemate call. Yes...it could of gone on longer but without knowing score or time, referees at times will stalemate a situation to keep time and opportunity, from slipping away in a tight close match.
I see 2 kids, without "great" technical skill....Hilliard kid hits a sinIgle, cant finish it, Watkins kid tries to bowl him over.. (wonder why he didnt step over and try to spladle, but hey... that's me). Watkins gets a head and arm....and in the process of circling in..gets stalemated. Ok my advice....finish quicker, or at least get some sort of intensity going.

I have a real problem with your response. Yes, the wrestler could have done a few other things; however, the wrestler had his elbow up with his hand on the chin with control working on head in the hole. That is an attack position. Stalemates need to be called when there is no advancement in position. The poorest decision on that referee's calling is his inability to recognize the fact that a front headlock offense is not stalling. Not all kids shoot. A front headlock offense is not stalling!

I still don't think time or score should effect calls.
I know this is apples to oranges but... In football, a hold is a hold, no matter score or time left in game.
In wrestling there should be a clear understanding of rules, such as a stalemate and stalling.

I have thanked officials before for hitting MY kids with stalling calls if I felt my kid wasn't moving. I don't care if my kid is up by 10, losing by 10, down by 1, up by 1 with :10 left. IF there is a call for a rule infraction then call it. Be consistent.

In the video, in the first clip, I felt the WM kid had position and was moving on his feet to better that position. IMO that was why I didn't like the stale mate call. The 2nd clip, I have no issues with it being called a stalemate. I was there, watched that match, I felt there were some questionable calls.

Huskerdoc;1398328 wrote:I still don't think time or score should effect calls.
I know this is apples to oranges but... In football, a hold is a hold, no matter score or time left in game.
In wrestling there should be a clear understanding of rules, such as a stalemate and stalling.

I have thanked officials before for hitting MY kids with stalling calls if I felt my kid wasn't moving. I don't care if my kid is up by 10, losing by 10, down by 1, up by 1 with :10 left. IF there is a call for a rule infraction then call it. Be consistent.

In the video, in the first clip, I felt the WM kid had position and was moving on his feet to better that position. IMO that was why I didn't like the stale mate call. The 2nd clip, I have no issues with it being called a stalemate. I was there, watched that match, I felt there were some questionable calls.

I am biased, but I agree with this reasoning. I felt the HD wrestler's arm had been blocked and clear advancement was being made toward an inevitable score. In fact, it appears to me that the leg was secured as the stalemate call was made.

For the record, I also have no problem with the second stalling call. In that case, the advantage gained by the WM wrestler came after the action had been stopped.

Again, I understand I am biased. I respect Refman's analysis and that of others who disagree.

There were other questionable calls, particularly a late TD ruled out of bounds and the stalling warning against the WM wrestler, which occurred after the HD wrestler had backed up and then both were circling back toward the center of the mat.

Unfortunately, video of the OT scramble does not exist. Video shot during that scramble that shows things like the sidelines, the ceiling and other mats does exist, however...

lhuwrestler...Your statement that a front headlock is not stalling is amazing. In this clip..it is not stalling but I have seen it used as a stall many times. So you are telling me that if a kid is up by 1 pt...with 30 secs to go...puts on a front headlock and does nothing..is not stalling? Really?
Time and score does matter.

Huskerdoc...come on..you are smarter than this. I agree...holds are called in football regardless of the score or time (sometimes score does matter if it is a blowout)...but in wrestling...refs also call illegal hold regardless of time or score. So your comparison is flawed. Football does have an intentional delay of game..as wrestling has stalling.
Time and score matters because of this...IT IS AN INDICATOR OF WHAT COULD BE HAPPENING.
If a score is 14-0....am I really going to look at either for a stall call? Uh no. Will I call a locking hands or illegal hold with short time left? Every-time.
If it is 2-1, who is MORE apt to stall? Doesn't mean it will occur but the referee needs to be aware it could be.
Coaches TEACH kids to be less "active" when they have a small lead and time is short. You telling me you would teach a kid to continue to take shots in the middle of the mat and take the chance of being taken down or reversed versus taking it easy and not taking chances? Uh yeah. How many times have you seen a kid up by one or two, take a bad shot and then taken to his back to lose? Happens a lot...how do you get around that? Make it look like you are working when in fact you are hanging on (with a front headlock), which we call...stalling. Or...stay on the edge so if there is a shot...you can always use the OB as safe haven...yeah that doesn't happen with short time on the clock now does it?

I completely understand the ambiguous nature of the stalling call and it is an argument that will go on, however time and score should not matter in the making of a call of stalling whether it is 2-1 or 14-0. The rule book does not state either time remaining or score differential as a criteria in making that call and to use either in your decision is bringing a certain bias to the call.

Here is the problem when someone says if a referee does not call things black and white&nbsp;every-time&nbsp;the way the rule book says..then he is biased.<br><br>One of the most talked about things&nbsp;that&nbsp;refs talk about when referees gather and start gabbing...is for their last match ever...they are truly going to call a match the way the rule book says. If that&nbsp;occurred...coaches would have a heart attack.<br>Few example...book says stay in the 10 foot circle...no contact...stalling! How quick a match would be over.<br>Fleeing? Backing out of bounds...book says to call it...again..the match would be over quickly.<br>The point here is...the rule book is written black and write but for many things...the book is NOT black and white. Stalling is one of those things.<br><br>Believe me...if we truly called the book...you&nbsp;wouldn't&nbsp;like it. Same for any sport. I do football...do you as a football coach really want my crew to call every hold? Really?&nbsp;That's&nbsp;what the book says....hell the game would last forever! We call the important, in the zone ones...the ones that matter.&nbsp;That's&nbsp; what a good referee does...in any sport.