I would agree that the underwhelming perception many have of Barnes, who I actually think was a pretty good college player notwithstanding the legendary status he was immediately given, is partly a product of simply receiving too much hype and expectations that were never realistic. But I don't feel sorry for the kid one iota. You also help create and drive that hype when you give yourself the nickname "The Black Falcon," hire an artist to design your own logo while still in high school (as Barnes admitted to doing), and talk about yourself like this:

The Atlantic Marketing Journal wrote:After the interview, it occurred to me that I was another brick in Barnes’s brand-building exercise. And what is that brand? “In high school, I was the kid from Iowa, who no one knew about and who used to work hard,” he’d told me. “Now, in college, I’m more the business guy who plays basketball.”

I mean, get real.

Point is...Carolina is ELITE. They have had 50 years of ELITE players come through. Dozens actually had great careers, both individually and as a team.

Are all of them honored? A guy like Jawad Williams? Barnes is obviously a bit better, but not by a whole lot. Very close when you consider team achievements.

I guess it's just my perception to honor a 2-year player who wasn't great by any means...

Azubuike24;1294680 wrote:Point is...Carolina is ELITE. They have had 50 years of ELITE players come through. Dozens actually had great careers, both individually and as a team.

Are all of them honored? A guy like Jawad Williams? Barnes is obviously a bit better, but not by a whole lot. Very close when you consider team achievements.

I guess it's just my perception to honor a 2-year player who wasn't great by any means...

I'm totally with you. I was just explaining why I think The Falcon is viewed by so many college basketball fans, at least the ones who paid close attention to the walking billboard's advertising campaign while he was at Carolina, as a major disappointment.

As for the jerseys or numbers hanging in Chapel Hill, I think the general rule of thumb for being "honored" at UNC is to have been an All-American selection of some sort (Barnes was second-team on a few different teams, such as Sporting News, NABC, etc.). You'd have to ask iron or wildcats. I think, though, that UNC should simply stick to just retiring the jerseys of the very best. I am glad that Duke does this. At Duke, you have to not only graduate from the university, but also be a NPOTY, multiple first team All-American, multiple NDOPTY (such as Shelden Williams) or break a major national record (such as Bobby Hurley's all-time NCAA assists record) in order to have your jersey hanging or "honored." Period.

That's how it should be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_men's_basketball_players

Here this is again for the people that simply choose to disregard it everytime that wildcats and I post it. Obviously the list isn't updated yet with Barnes and Zeller. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a jerk here, but I just don't get it. Of all the things UK or Duke fans could complain about, you wanna harp about how Carolina honors too many players.

From the article I just posted, Carolina has 49 jerseys hanging in the rafters.


http://www.ukathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/092502aaf.html

Looks like UK isn't far behind. Better go tear those things down.

reclegend22;1294715 wrote: I think, though, that UNC should simply stick to just retiring the jerseys of the very best.

Which is what they do. They have only 8 jerseys "retired". Only a National Player of the Year gets their jersey retired.

ironman02;1294843 wrote:Which is what they do. They have only 8 jerseys "retired". Only a National Player of the Year gets their jersey retired.

I understand that. And that's the right way to do it, IMO. I just think that the "honored" names or whatever is unnecessary. I mean, 49 players having their name dangling from the stadium's ceiling just seems excessive. That's what hall-of-fames in the lobby are for. I feel that the only names that should be hanging are the retired ones. Then again, that's just my opinion. I am not trying to come across as a jerk, either, but rather simply stating how I interpret the subject.

Carolina is free to do whatever it wants.

First Coaches' Poll is out. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2

Indiana #1 (21)
Kentucky #3 (5)
Ohio State #4 (5)
Michigan #5
Kansas #7
Duke #8
Michigan State #14
Wisconsin #21
Notre Dame #23

USA Today Coaches Poll
RK	TEAM	RECORD	PTS
1	Indiana (21)	0-0	761
2	Louisville (5)	0-0	738
3	Kentucky (5)	0-0	718
4	Ohio State	0-0	617
5	Michigan	0-0	605
6	North Carolina State	0-0	581
7	Kansas	0-0	563
8	Duke	0-0	516
9	Syracuse	0-0	502
10	Florida	0-0	422
11	Arizona	0-0	411
12	North Carolina	0-0	401
13	UCLA	0-0	396
14	Michigan State	0-0	391
15	Creighton	0-0	325
16	Memphis	0-0	307
17	Missouri	0-0	289
18	Baylor	0-0	266
19	UNLV	0-0	203
20	San Diego State	0-0	196
21	Wisconsin	0-0	191
22	Gonzaga	0-0	166
23	Notre Dame	0-0	122
24	Florida State	0-0	61
24	Texas	0-0	61

• Others receiving votes: Saint Louis 58, Virginia Commonwealth 40, Cincinnati 33, Murray State 30, Kansas State 13, Saint Mary's 11, New Mexico 10, Tennessee 10, Minnesota 9, Pittsburgh 9, Marquette 8, Stanford 7, Oklahoma State 6, Butler 6, Colorado State 4, Middle Tennessee 3, Saint Joseph's 2, Drexel 2, Georgia 2, Miami (FL) 2, Marshall 1

• Dropped from rankings: Marquette 10, Murray State 16, Georgetown 17, Cincinnati 18, Vanderbilt 19, New Mexico 23, Xavier 24, Ohio 25

[/FONT][/COLOR]

I think the UCLA debacle over the past few years is the most interesting preseason storyline. Ben Howland doesn't have much leash. If this team underperforms I can't imagine it will end well for him.

Indiana will be a fun team to watch. I love the way Tom Crean gets his kids to play so energetic and cohesively and the pinpoint outside shooting is a splendid step back in Hoosier history. I do think IU will miss Jordan Hulls more than some might think -- this kid was Alford in terms of downtown accuracy -- but the top of the lineup in Zeller, Watford and Oladipo should be more than enough to keep the Hoosiers in the top five most of the year. I like the selection at No. 1.

Louisville returns several key components from last year's Final Four team, including the Big East preseason POTY in Peyton Siva, but I do not see the Cardinals delivering a repeat performance and reaching Atlanta. Where in the hell is the shooting going to come from? They barely finished in the top 300 in the country last season in shooting the three, bottoming out at 291. And they've lost their two most efficient three-point shooters in terms of both makes and percentage to graduation in Kyle Kuric and Chris Smith. This was one of the worst scoring teams Pitino has presided over since his earliest days at probation-addled Kentucky. They will go ice age cold and be out in the first weekend. My early-season prediction. (I think Az had this prediction last season, so we will see if I fare any better.)

Definitely the biggest criticism of UofL. They also lost Mike Marra for the season. Russ Smith is a gunner, but not necessarily a great shooter. Siva and Blackshear are not good shooters. Luke Hancock (transfer from George Mason) isn't bad, but again, it's not enough to replace what was lost, and what was lost wasn't that productive.

I don't think they are overrated because it's a very up-in-the-air year. However, I don't expect them to be the 2nd best team. There are half a dozen teams ranked below them who have far more upside. Duke, Kentucky, Michigan State for sure have better odds going into March IMO.

How many years has siva been at Louisville? 7?8?

Did anyone see the All-Access part 1 tonight on ESPN?

I think whether you believe it or not, it was a good insight on some of the ways Calipari has become so successful with recruiting. I'd imagine it's the same with some other coaches.

reclegend22;1297824 wrote:Indiana will be a fun team to watch. I love the way Tom Crean gets his kids to play so energetic and cohesively and the pinpoint outside shooting is a splendid step back in Hoosier history. I do think IU will miss Jordan Hulls more than some might think -- this kid was Alford in terms of downtown accuracy -- but the top of the lineup in Zeller, Watford and Oladipo should be more than enough to keep the Hoosiers in the top five most of the year. I like the selection at No. 1.

??? Huh ???

Hard to believe Crean turned Indiana around as quick as he did after all that K Sampson garbage and probation. He sure can coach. The 2 teams I want UK to beat the most are ranked in front of them.

Laley23;1297940 wrote:??? Huh ???

Yeah, you didn't hear? Bobby Knight sold Jordan Hulls on eBay. It's all over the news.

Lol. I have obviously mistaken Hulls with Matt Roth, who will not be returning this season. Roth was a hell of a shooter in his own right, though, shooting at a 54 percent clip from three-point range a season ago.

http://sujuiceonline.com/2012/10/17/jim-boeheim-spars-with-rick-pitino-at-big-east-media-day/

It started when Pitino said the additions of Memphis and Temple in 2013 would “more than make up for” the losses of Pitt and Syracuse, who are leaving the Big East at the end of the season for the ACC.

Boeheim, who hired Pitino as an assistant coach in 1976, not so politely disagreed.
“Rick’s full of shit if that’s what he really said,” Boeheim said. “If he was in the Big 12 right now like he wanted to be, he’d being saying the Big 12 is the best.”

Boeheim was commenting on rumors that Louisville would be jumping to the Big 12 last year. Ultimately, West Virginia defected to that conference from the Big East.

“The only thing I’ll say about what Rick said all summer is that if Louisville could have left they would have left,” Boeheim said. “Everybody knows it and I’m really tired of him saying what Syracuse should be or should have done because they would have left in a heartbeat.”

reclegend22;1297973 wrote:Yeah, you didn't hear? Bobby Knight sold Jordan Hulls on eBay. It's all over the news.

Lol. I have obviously mistaken Hulls with Matt Roth, who will not be returning this season. Roth was a hell of a shooter in his own right, though, shooting at a 54 percent clip from three-point range a season ago.

Lol.

And yes, I contend Matt Roth was the best shooter in America and Hulls was top 5. Roth, though, is not a big lose, especially to this team. I would love to have him, but he was a spot player because he lacked any kind of lateral quickness. He had a quick release, but couldnt necessarily get open. Hulls is just as good a shooter as Roth, but can actually play the game and get 30 minutes a game with this team.

Chane Behanan possibly suspended for the first semester for Louisville. It's only going to be maybe 8-10 games, but still, not a good start chemistry-wise for a team expecting a national title and it being one of their biggest impact players.

Other high-profile Freshman not cleared to play yet. Nerlens Noel is. Interesting, considering he's one of the big names that constantly people questioned. Of course, they were investigating recruiting trips to schools NOT named UK, during his Junior year. So of course, Kentucky was the name in the headlines :huh:

Speaking of Knight, I was just wondering, Laley, do you think that he will ever return to Assembly Hall? I know there are obvious circumstances at play that will probably stop this from ever happening, but I love everything about Knight and it would be great to see him get that uproarious, three or four minute standing ovation that he rightfully deserves and the state of Indiana, I am sure, would love to give him. It'd be a great way to give Knight a proper goodbye, which he never got.

I personally do not fault Knight for holding a grudge, even if he in the end did some of this to himself, to a certain degree, by simply refusing to conduct himself temperately after the zero-tolerance policy. Then again, I think Myles Brand (RIP) is a hypocritical asshole.

No, Knight will never be back. He is a bitter old SOB, holding a ridiculous grudge. I love him for what he did and think he is the smartest mind, basketball wise, we have seen since Wooden. But lets be honest, he is an asshole, to put it mildly.

Why are Ohio State tickets so dang expensive? $34 for upper deck and $52 for lower? Really? Michigan State is $32 & $24 for Christ sakes. I know it's the Buckeyes but damn that's a lot for basketball tickets. Probably going to Kansas, Michigan and at MSU this year

Laley23;1301347 wrote:No, Knight will never be back. He is a bitter old SOB, holding a ridiculous grudge. I love him for what he did and think he is the smartest mind, basketball wise, we have seen since Wooden. But lets be honest, he is an ****, to put it mildly.

You're the Indiana fan and are more connected to the situation than I am, but, as an outside observer, I can see why Knight wouldn't consider the grudge "ridiculous." He helped forever stamp Indiana on the basketball map as one of the six greatest programs in the history of the sport. He gave the school three national titles, scores of Final Fours, uncountable Big Ten championships, and other excesses beyond measure. And they gave him a pink slip.

Sure, Indiana was no longer winning near the end of Knight's tenure, but that's one of the reasons why I (again, as an outsider looking in) have such a problem with Knight being fired. He was the same son of a bitch when he was winning titles -- throwing chairs, under the threat of extradition for beating the fuck out of a policeman in Puerto Rico, abusing players mentally in practice, etc. Yet, it only became a problem when the titles subsided.

Whatever I guess. Knight will go down as a top two all-time coach in basketball regardless of it all.

reclegend22;1301394 wrote:You're the Indiana fan and are more connected to the situation than I am, but, as an outside observer, I can see why Knight wouldn't consider the grudge "ridiculous." He helped forever stamp Indiana on the basketball map as one of the six greatest programs in the history of the sport. He gave the school three national titles, scores of Final Fours, uncountable Big Ten championships, and other excesses beyond measure. And they gave him a pink slip.

Sure, Indiana was no longer winning near the end of Knight's tenure, but that's one of the reasons why I (again, as an outsider looking in) have such a problem with Knight being fired. He was the same son of a bitch when he was winning titles -- throwing chairs, under the threat of extradition for beating the fuck out of a policeman in Puerto Rico, abusing players mentally in practice, etc. Yet, it only became a problem when the titles subsided.

Whatever I guess. Knight will go down as a top two all-time coach in basketball regardless of it all.

Knight was fired because he choked a kid who filed charges. Dont let any other reason cloud your thoughts. IU shouldnt have ever put him on a "zero-tolerance" he shouldve been let go once the video surfaced and it was shown he was lying about it. They gave him the benefit of the doubt being at IU for 30 years to not fire him and let him clean up his act after that. He couldnt do it, so he was let go.

They would put up with verbal abuse and temper tantrums all day. But you cant choke a player.

The grudge is ridiculous. I get why he doesnt see it that way...but in reality it is. You forced Indiana into firing you, not once, but twice. First was choking Neil Reid (RIP, btw) and the second was not being able to keep calm in the student union and berating a student when on zero tolerance. No one to blame but himself, sorry. I cant fault a University for firing a man who put his hands around the throat of a player.

Laley23;1301403 wrote:Knight was fired because he choked a kid who filed charges. Dont let any other reason cloud your thoughts. IU shouldnt have ever put him on a "zero-tolerance" he shouldve been let go once the video surfaced and it was shown he was lying about it. They gave him the benefit of the doubt being at IU for 30 years to not fire him and let him clean up his act after that. He couldnt do it, so he was let go.

They would put up with verbal abuse and temper tantrums all day. But you cant choke a player.

The grudge is ridiculous. I get why he doesnt see it that way...but in reality it is. You forced Indiana into firing you, not once, but twice. First was choking Neil Reid (RIP, btw) and the second was not being able to keep calm in the student union and berating a student when on zero tolerance. No one to blame but himself, sorry. I cant fault a University for firing a man who put his hands around the throat of a player.

Coming from an IU fan, you make a pretty open and shut case there. Despite all of the transgressions over the years, I still understand why Knight holds the grudge he does, but as I said before I do agree that he is ultimately to blame for what his career at Indiana devolved into. He was a ticking time bomb that eventually blew up and now he's left to pick up the pieces.