The Coddling of Relief Pitchers Today

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Footwedge

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9,265 posts
Jul 14, 2012 11:20 PM
Back in the day (70's) managers played to win. You had a tight game? You brought in your horse in the middle of the seventh....and he would pitch the rest of the way. The next night? Same thing. The next night? You would bring in your second best closer. And on it went.

Today, the 8 million dollar closer goes one inning. That's it. And it's all BS.

In the 60's, Louie Arroyo would pitch the seventh, eighth, and ninth for Whitey Ford. His arm never fell off. Bruce Sutter did the same..as did Goose Gossage.

The Oakland A's won titles back to back to back...72, 73, and 74. They weren't a great team. They just had a manager who played to win. None of this 7th, 8th, and 9th inning bullshit you see today. People remember the mustachiod Rollie Fingers as their great closer.

Well....Fingers averaged 119 innings per season over that period. Compare that with the piddly 50 innings Perez will see...same with Pestano. No wonder the tribe flounders about at the 500 mark.

But back to Fingers. Yes, 119 innings a season....and...of their team's 132 saves over those 3 seasons, Fingers only had 71 of them.

Today's "push button" managers don't play to win. They just play a real life computer game.:mad:
Jul 14, 2012 11:20pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Jul 14, 2012 11:38 PM
Baseball is a game of statistics. I'm sure that the managers do what they're doing because, statistically, it is the right thing to do, and gives them the best shot at winning games. Perhaps you can consider it progress? Change is bad?
Jul 14, 2012 11:38pm
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ohiobucks1

USA American

4,915 posts
Jul 15, 2012 1:09 AM
Footwedge;1225795 wrote:Back in the day (70's) managers played to win. You had a tight game? You brought in your horse in the middle of the seventh....and he would pitch the rest of the way. The next night? Same thing. The next night? You would bring in your second best closer. And on it went.

Today, the 8 million dollar closer goes one inning. That's it. And it's all BS.

In the 60's, Louie Arroyo would pitch the seventh, eighth, and ninth for Whitey Ford. His arm never fell off. Bruce Sutter did the same..as did Goose Gossage.

The Oakland A's won titles back to back to back...72, 73, and 74. They weren't a great team. They just had a manager who played to win. None of this 7th, 8th, and 9th inning bullshit you see today. People remember the mustachiod Rollie Fingers as their great closer.

Well....Fingers averaged 119 innings per season over that period. Compare that with the piddly 50 innings Perez will see...same with Pestano. No wonder the tribe flounders about at the 500 mark.

But back to Fingers. Yes, 119 innings a season....and...of their team's 132 saves over those 3 seasons, Fingers only had 71 of them.

Today's "push button" managers don't play to win. They just play a real life computer game.:mad:
tl;dr
Jul 15, 2012 1:09am
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

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7,809 posts
Jul 15, 2012 9:43 AM
Fingers (73/74) 16-13, 13 blown saves, 2.29 ERA, 1.13 WHIP, .233 BAA

Perez (10/11) 6-9, 8 blown saves, 2.50 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, .200 BAA

Career- Fingers converted 75% saves

Perez converted 85% saves
Jul 15, 2012 9:43am
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DeadliestWarrior34

gooby pls

3,101 posts
Jul 15, 2012 9:51 AM
So the reason the Tribe is .500 is because they do what every other team in Major League Baseball does? Yeah I'm sure that's it.
Jul 15, 2012 9:51am
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
Jul 15, 2012 10:44 AM
Glory Days;1225900 wrote:Fingers (73/74) 16-13, 13 blown saves, 2.29 ERA, 1.13 WHIP, .233 BAA

Perez (10/11) 6-9, 8 blown saves, 2.50 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, .200 BAA

Career- Fingers converted 75% saves

Perez converted 85% saves
Converting a 1 inning save is much easier than converting a 2 or 3 inning save. Saves can be a very misleading stat.
Jul 15, 2012 10:44am
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Ironman92

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49,363 posts
Jul 15, 2012 11:54 AM
They also had 4 man rotations and no pitch count. Stud pitchers went 300 innings and 200 was nothing.
Jul 15, 2012 11:54am
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sportchampps

Senior Member

7,361 posts
Jul 15, 2012 12:24 PM
What if a team went with Lou pinellas idea a few years ago and let the closer pitch the first and second then bring in the starter for the rest of the way
Jul 15, 2012 12:24pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 15, 2012 12:32 PM
DeadliestWarrior34;1225902 wrote:So the reason the Tribe is .500 is because they do what every other team in Major League Baseball does? Yeah I'm sure that's it.
I'm a tribe fan. So shoot me. If I am Acta, I play my best players to win. Don't really give a shit what the status quo does. That's the point of my thread.
Jul 15, 2012 12:32pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 15, 2012 12:35 PM
sportchampps;1225952 wrote:What if a team went with Lou pinellas idea a few years ago and let the closer pitch the first and second then bring in the starter for the rest of the way
Don't know if I would do that...but what I would do...almost every single playoff game...would be to take out my right handed starter and put a lefty in at the start of the second inning. Every game in fact. Nothing like reducing the collective batting average of the opponents about 35 points.
Jul 15, 2012 12:35pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 15, 2012 12:37 PM
Al Bundy;1225917 wrote:Converting a 1 inning save is much easier than converting a 2 or 3 inning save. Saves can be a very misleading stat.
Ding, ding, ding. My guess would be that Fingers had a better ERA over those 3 years than Perez' has accomplished so far.
Jul 15, 2012 12:37pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 15, 2012 12:39 PM
Ironman92;1225945 wrote:They also had 4 man rotations and no pitch count. Stud pitchers went 300 innings and 200 was nothing.
Exactly. 1971 Orioles with 4, 20 game winners.
Jul 15, 2012 12:39pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 15, 2012 12:41 PM
ohiobucks1;1225866 wrote:tl;dr
ADHD is corrected with new meds these days.
Jul 15, 2012 12:41pm
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Rotinaj

Senior Member

7,699 posts
Jul 15, 2012 12:58 PM
These guys would get rocked in today's game. Bunch of scrubs.
Jul 15, 2012 12:58pm
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BRF

Senior Member

8,748 posts
Jul 15, 2012 4:42 PM
I agree with Footwedge.

I don't even want to get started right now on how I really feel about today's relief pitchers.

Maybe later.

Just a thought: when say, Pestano comes in in the 8th and mows down the opposition, why is there NEVER any thought about having him finish the game? Maybe it ought to be tried sometime.

Grrrrrrrr.
Jul 15, 2012 4:42pm
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ts1227

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12,319 posts
Jul 15, 2012 4:52 PM
Footwedge;1225795 wrote:Back in the day (70's)

don't care
Jul 15, 2012 4:52pm
BRF's avatar

BRF

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8,748 posts
Jul 15, 2012 4:58 PM
ts1227;1226073 wrote:don't care
So, what once worked doesn't apply today?
Jul 15, 2012 4:58pm
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BRF

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8,748 posts
Jul 15, 2012 5:04 PM
Footwedge;1225958 wrote: 1971 Orioles with 4, 20 game winners.

To help me slow down from getting pissed, how about you name the 4 20 game winners for the young know-it-alls?

Pretty sure I can do it without Googling.

Ha ha!
Jul 15, 2012 5:04pm
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 15, 2012 5:07 PM
Palmer McNally Dobson and ???

McNally had more wins than the others.
Jul 15, 2012 5:07pm
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Glory Days

Senior Member

7,809 posts
Jul 15, 2012 5:10 PM
Al Bundy;1225917 wrote:Converting a 1 inning save is much easier than converting a 2 or 3 inning save. Saves can be a very misleading stat.
Footwedge;1225956 wrote:Ding, ding, ding. My guess would be that Fingers had a better ERA over those 3 years than Perez' has accomplished so far.
of course its easier, THAT IS WHY WE HAVE DEDICATED CLOSERS!!!!! :laugh:

also, footwedge, look at the ERA, WHIP and BAA. Perez is either better or the same in those categories in his 2 full seasons as a closer compared to two of the seasons you listed for Fingers.
Jul 15, 2012 5:10pm
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BRF

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8,748 posts
Jul 15, 2012 5:25 PM
Con_Alma;1226079 wrote:Palmer McNally Dobson and ???

McNally had more wins than the others.
You did good! (Cuellar)
Jul 15, 2012 5:25pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 15, 2012 5:26 PM
Lol...I would have never got that.
Jul 15, 2012 5:26pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 15, 2012 6:24 PM
Glory Days;1226082 wrote:of course its easier, THAT IS WHY WE HAVE DEDICATED CLOSERS!!!!! :laugh:

also, footwedge, look at the ERA, WHIP and BAA. Perez is either better or the same in those categories in his 2 full seasons as a closer compared to two of the seasons you listed for Fingers.
I think Fingers was great over a whole career. I think Perez has been great over his first 2 seasons. How about pitching Perez as many innings as Fingers? Pestano and Smith too.

Just because the team is down a run or 2, doesn't mean you have to lug out the Nick Haggadones of the world and cross your fingers (pun came out of nowhere).

But you already knew that...I started a thread on it.
Jul 15, 2012 6:24pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 15, 2012 6:29 PM
BRF;1226077 wrote:To help me slow down from getting pissed, how about you name the 4 20 game winners for the young know-it-alls?

Pretty sure I can do it without Googling.

Ha ha!
Yup...could have. Being a baseball geek I can remember their stellar relievers too! Moe Drabowski, Stu Miller ( a few years earlier though).

When the Pirates won the series, I remember Earl Weaver complaining that the best team in baseball lost.
Jul 15, 2012 6:29pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 15, 2012 6:32 PM
ts1227;1226073 wrote:don't care
Shocking. You still pissed about me patting myself on the back? BTW, I'm interviewing to be a mod around here. If I get it, you'll have to find a new job.:laugh:
Jul 15, 2012 6:32pm