Why do you hate corporations?

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I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 11:05 AM
obviously the large majority in the post bellum era lacked the skills, knowledge, relationships and resources to do anything but go into factories or starve.
Jul 21, 2012 11:05am
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 11:26 AM
Large majority? I say all lacked the skills, knowledge and relationships....and yet some still chose to take a different path and put their security in their own hands.

Those that didn't chose poorly.
Jul 21, 2012 11:26am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jul 21, 2012 11:49 AM
Most successful people did not get to where they are by giving away their money. Many are actually fair in terms of their prices & wages paid. Problem is, "fair" is almost always perceived as "unfair" to people who are poor at estimating cost or value or simply feeling entitled to getting a handout or free ride.
Jul 21, 2012 11:49am
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 11:59 AM
people? what do we get when we allow unregulated corporations treat workers and consumers. we saw how they treated workers in the post bellum era when there was little or no regulation on how these artificial soulless entities treated real people. they often sold dangerous, even deadly products to the consumer. they exploited their workers 16 hour days for men, women and children with minimal pay, in dangerous conditions, with no compensation for the injured or killed. yeh real fair.
Jul 21, 2012 11:59am
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 12:00 PM
Con_Alma;1230471 wrote:Large majority? I say all lacked the skills, knowledge and relationships....and yet some still chose to take a different path and put their security in their own hands.

Those that didn't chose poorly.
some had access to the knowledge, skills and relationships necessary to take a different route, the large majority did not.
Jul 21, 2012 12:00pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jul 21, 2012 12:53 PM
isadore;1230492 wrote:people? what do we get when we allow unregulated corporations treat workers and consumers. we saw how they treated workers in the post bellum era when there was little or no regulation on how these artificial soulless entities treated real people. they often sold dangerous, even deadly products to the consumer. they exploited their workers 16 hour days for men, women and children with minimal pay, in dangerous conditions, with no compensation for the injured or killed. yeh real fair.
Again, you pretend like something that happened a hundred years ago is common business practice today. Business have evolved with the times just like everything else. There are still abusers today, just as with anything and there will always be, but in fact it's PEOPLE making those decisions. A "corporation" doesn't do anything on its own, it is always people behind those decisions. Corporations don't commit fraud, people do - at all levels (from CEO's down to the mortgage writer peon and ignorant home buyer, union workers scamming the system, etc...)

But as I've said before, most good businesspeople now recognize that lost-time injuries are costly, and that grossly overworked people are inefficient. Most errors are the result of inaccurate or improper analysis/evaluations. Only a small number of people without fear of fraud or reprecussions would knowingly cut corners with an expectation of likely failure costing millions (and more). But in most cases the intentions are benign - we don't impose a 10-yr waiting/approval on procedures or methods when the true reliability becomes more certain. There's a trade-off of balancing the risks and costs - excessive regulation has a net negative economic impact. A responsible approach recognizes the ability of the system to absorb these failures in light of the fact that 100% elimination is cost prohibitive. Two examples would be the mortgage business where the system couldn't absorb the failures so you have to do a lot of re-writing. But then you can look at building codes which typically apply to new or remodeled/rennovated structures rather than forcing people to constantly pay to update their homes to meet current standards. By your criteria, something that is an issue for 1 in 10,000 should be forced on everyone to update to standards
Jul 21, 2012 12:53pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:31 PM
isadore;1230494 wrote:some had access to the knowledge, skills and relationships necessary to take a different route, the large majority did not.
It is not those "some" that I refer to. Countless people who had no money, skills nor relationships chose to put their own security in their own control. Those that didn't choose to do so chose poorly.
Jul 21, 2012 1:31pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:31 PM
gut;1230515 wrote:Again, you pretend like something that happened a hundred years ago is common business practice today. Business have evolved with the times just like everything else. There are still abusers today, just as with anything and there will always be, but in fact it's PEOPLE making those decisions. A "corporation" doesn't do anything on its own, it is always people behind those decisions. Corporations don't commit fraud, people do - at all levels (from CEO's down to the mortgage writer peon and ignorant home buyer, union workers scamming the system, etc...)

But as I've said before, most good businesspeople now recognize that lost-time injuries are costly, and that grossly overworked people are inefficient. Most errors are the result of inaccurate or improper analysis/evaluations. Only a small number of people without fear of fraud or reprecussions would knowingly cut corners with an expectation of likely failure costing millions (and more). But in most cases the intentions are benign - we don't impose a 10-yr waiting/approval on procedures or methods when the true reliability becomes more certain. There's a trade-off of balancing the risks and costs - excessive regulation has a net negative economic impact. A responsible approach recognizes the ability of the system to absorb these failures in light of the fact that 100% elimination is cost prohibitive. Two examples would be the mortgage business where the system couldn't absorb the failures so you have to do a lot of re-writing. But then you can look at building codes which typically apply to new or remodeled/rennovated structures rather than forcing people to constantly pay to update their homes to meet current standards. By your criteria, something that is an issue for 1 in 10,000 should be forced on everyone to update to standards
Corporations exist because of government, not vice versa. They are created by a charter given to them by government that gives them certain advantages. They become economic entities with the right to make contracts, issue stock, borrow. The corporation is responsible for these actions, not individuals. Government also grants the advantage to the corporations and stockholders of limited liability so no matter what horrendous thing this corporations do, the stockholders responsibilities are limited. Gosh government even gave these artificial, soulless entities the right to participate in the political process.
And then government let them loose on society, and they exploited men, women and children workers, they produced dangerous, even deadly products. That is what they did when they were allowed to act as they wished.
Then the people acting though their government put limits on these soulless entities on how they could treat workers, consumers and the corrupted political process. WE HAD SEEN HOW THEY ACTED WITHOUT REGULATION And after all besides the abuses, why shouldn’t the government be able to regulate entities it brought into existence and endowed with so many advantages. Now those regulations are softening and the abuse is increasing.
Jul 21, 2012 1:31pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:32 PM
isadore;1230492 wrote:people? what do we get when we allow unregulated corporations treat workers and consumers. we saw how they treated workers in the post bellum era when there was little or no regulation on how these artificial soulless entities treated real people. they often sold dangerous, even deadly products to the consumer. they exploited their workers 16 hour days for men, women and children with minimal pay, in dangerous conditions, with no compensation for the injured or killed. yeh real fair.
It's still not "fair" today and nothing you or the government will do will make it fair. You choose risk when you put your dependency in a corporation. You choose it.
Jul 21, 2012 1:32pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:33 PM
isadore;1230526 wrote:Corporations exist because of government, not vice versa. They are created by a charter given to them by government that gives them certain advantages. They become economic entities with the right to make contracts, issue stock, borrow. The corporation is responsible for these actions, not individuals. Government also grants the advantage to the corporations and stockholders of limited liability so no matter what horrendous thing this corporations do, the stockholders responsibilities are limited. Gosh government even gave these artificial, soulless entities the right to participate in the political process.
And then government let them loose on society, and they exploited men, women and children workers, they produced dangerous, even deadly products. That is what they did when they were allowed to act as they wished.
Then the people acting though their government put limits on these soulless entities on how they could treat workers, consumers and the corrupted political process. WE HAD SEEN HOW THEY ACTED WITHOUT REGULATION And after all besides the abuses, why shouldn’t the government be able to regulate entities it brought into existence and endowed with so many advantages. Now those regulations are softening and the abuse is increasing.
Why they exist is irrelevant to the fact that an individual chooses to engage with them.
Jul 21, 2012 1:33pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:33 PM
Con_Alma;1230524 wrote:It is not those "some" that I refer to. Countless people who had no money, skills nor relationships chose to put their own security in their own control. Those that didn't choose to do so chose poorly.
in the post bellum era it is more descriptive to describe those who had no choice but factory or starvation with the term "countless."
Jul 21, 2012 1:33pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:34 PM
isadore;1230530 wrote:in the post bellum era it is more descriptive to describe those who had no choice but factory or starvation with the term "countless."
I am not seeking to be more descriptive. I am seeking to make it know that all people had choices. Some didn't like those choices. People choose their outcomes.
Jul 21, 2012 1:34pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:37 PM
Con_Alma;1230529 wrote:Why they exist is irrelevant to the fact that an individual chooses to engage with them.
no choice without government intervention
Jul 21, 2012 1:37pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:37 PM
isadore;1230533 wrote:no choice without government intervention
We disagree. People had the choice but didn't want to take such a route. They chose poorly.
Jul 21, 2012 1:37pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:38 PM
Con_Alma;1230531 wrote:I am not seeking to be more descriptive. I am seeking to make it know that all people had choices. Some didn't like those choices. People choose their outcomes.
they did not have the choice because of lack of knowledge, support and resources.
Jul 21, 2012 1:38pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:38 PM
isadore;1230535 wrote:they did not have the choice because of lack of knowledge, support and resources.
Not true. Not having those things didn't eliminate the choice.
Jul 21, 2012 1:38pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:39 PM
Con_Alma;1230534 wrote:We disagree. People had the choice but didn't want to take such a route. They chose poorly.
we disagree, in the post bellum period millions of people had no choice
Jul 21, 2012 1:39pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:39 PM
Con_Alma;1230536 wrote:Not true. Not having those things didn't eliminate the choice.
it did for millions of them.
Jul 21, 2012 1:39pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:39 PM
isadore;1230537 wrote:we disagree, in the post bellum period millions of people had no choice
The did they simply didn't want to act on that choice.
Jul 21, 2012 1:39pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:39 PM
isadore;1230538 wrote:it did for millions of them.
The choice was still present and available....and still is today.
Jul 21, 2012 1:39pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:41 PM
Con_Alma;1230527 wrote:It's still not "fair" today and nothing you or the government will do will make it fair. You choose risk when you put your dependency in a corporation. You choose it.
people acting through the agency of government can make it fair even when dealing with soulless entities.
Jul 21, 2012 1:41pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:43 PM
Con_Alma;1230539 wrote:The did they simply didn't want to act on that choice.
yes when that choice was starvation.
Jul 21, 2012 1:43pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:43 PM
isadore;1230542 wrote:people acting through the agency of government can make it fair even when dealing with soulless entities.
They can but won't. ...not in you lifetime nor mine. People knowing it's not fair have to choose if that's they want to engage or not.
Jul 21, 2012 1:43pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:44 PM
Con_Alma;1230540 wrote:The choice was still present and available....and still is today.
this is not post bellum America.
Jul 21, 2012 1:44pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 21, 2012 1:44 PM
isadore;1230544 wrote:yes when that choice was starvation.
They had the option to obtain food. they simply didn't want to take that option. They chose poorly.
Jul 21, 2012 1:44pm