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Younger generation doubts god

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O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Jun 13, 2012 11:43 AM
DeyDurkie5;1198391 wrote:oh shut up belly.
Hey, that might be the most eloquent thing Belly has ever posted.

mofo

/Belly'd
Jun 13, 2012 11:43am
DeyDurkie5's avatar

DeyDurkie5

Senior Member

11,324 posts
Jun 13, 2012 11:45 AM
O-Trap;1198394 wrote:Hey, that might be the most eloquent thing Belly has ever posted.

mofo

/Belly'd
It was dumb.
Jun 13, 2012 11:45am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Jun 13, 2012 11:49 AM
o-trap.

I like your posts, I don't know to respond to every point you have brought up. I'm not about to write a book.
Jun 13, 2012 11:49am
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Jun 13, 2012 11:50 AM
sleeper;1198411 wrote:o-trap.

I like your posts, I don't know to respond to every point you have brought up. I'm not about to write a book.
No worries. You're a pretty smart guys, so I'm sure you'll at least give the topic pause.

I've read enough books on the topic and had enough college professors who were published authors, so writing a couple thousand words isn't a big deal. ;)
Jun 13, 2012 11:50am
J

jmog

Senior Member

6,567 posts
Jun 13, 2012 11:51 AM
sleeper;1198384 wrote:Interesting that you apply a belief in gravity since you have seen highly correlated evidence of its existence and which no one disputes. You were born with no knowledge of gravity, what it is, how it works, etc; but you now believe it based on what you have seen.

Using this, you were also born an atheist. You had no knowledge of a god or gods and have to be moved with highly correlated evidence to move you from the position of atheist. An atheist is someone who has no seen enough evidence or any evidence to move from said default position.

Is someone who is born in the jungles of Madagascar not believe in gravity? Is not believing in gravity a position of faith? No it isn't. Atheism is a lack of belief. It is the default position, it does not require proof, it does not need evidence.

Equating as such is a terrible way to setup your logic system and is why repeatedly I harp on believers for having a "broken mind". Setting up your mind this way, you are also an atheist. You don't believe in polytheism or the greek gods or thor, etc. Welcome to the club.
You are equating atheism to agnosticism and they are two different things. Nearly everywhere you said atheist in this post should be replaced with agnostic and then you MIGHT have an argument.
Jun 13, 2012 11:51am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 13, 2012 11:52 AM
jmog;1198418 wrote:You are equating atheism to agnosticism and they are two different things. Nearly everywhere you said atheist in this post should be replaced with agnostic and then you MIGHT have an argument.
Semantics. Way to move the goal posts.
Jun 13, 2012 11:52am
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Jun 13, 2012 11:58 AM
sleeper;1198421 wrote:Semantics. Way to move the goal posts.
Technically, it's not semantic.

An agnostic gives equal credence to the possibility of the existence and non-existence of a deity or deities. Agnosticism is of the persuasion that "we can't know."

Succinctly:

Theist: There is a deity.
Atheist: There is no deity.
Agnostic: You both assume too much.
Jun 13, 2012 11:58am
Devils Advocate's avatar

Devils Advocate

Brudda o da bomber

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Jun 13, 2012 12:01 PM
I have been known to be anti semantic.:0
Jun 13, 2012 12:01pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 13, 2012 12:02 PM
O-Trap;1198435 wrote:Technically, it's not semantic.

An agnostic gives equal credence to the possibility of the existence and non-existence a deity or deities. Agnosticism is of the persuasion that "we can't know."

Succinctly:

Theist: There is a deity.
Atheist: There is no deity.
Agnostic: You both assume too much.
I fundamentally disagree with the definition of atheism. There are more than two options as far as beliefs go. It's not simple I believe in God or I believe there is no God. That's only assuming monotheism, but there is also polytheistic beliefs as well. That's why the proper defintion of atheism needs to be "a person who lacks belief in gods".
Jun 13, 2012 12:02pm
J

jmog

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6,567 posts
Jun 13, 2012 12:08 PM
sleeper;1198442 wrote:I fundamentally disagree with the definition of atheism. There are more than two options as far as beliefs go. It's not simple I believe in God or I believe there is no God. That's only assuming monotheism, but there is also polytheistic beliefs as well. That's why the proper defintion of atheism needs to be "a person who lacks belief in gods".
So we all have to use the sleeper dictionary instead of the standard definitions of world views?
Jun 13, 2012 12:08pm
DeadliestWarrior34's avatar

DeadliestWarrior34

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Jun 13, 2012 12:08 PM
justincredible;1198259 wrote:

Lol. This.
Jun 13, 2012 12:08pm
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sleeper

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Jun 13, 2012 12:11 PM
jmog;1198447 wrote:So we all have to use the sleeper dictionary instead of the standard definitions of world views?
I think you are more upset that I'm right and you're wrong. I don't know how that feels, but your reaction is priceless.
Jun 13, 2012 12:11pm
J

jmog

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Jun 13, 2012 12:11 PM
sleeper;1198421 wrote:Semantics. Way to move the goal posts.
As otrap pointed out, it is not semantics to someone who understands the difference between atheism and agnosticism.

By the way otraps definition of theism includes both mono and poly theism to answer your other comment.
Jun 13, 2012 12:11pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

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Jun 13, 2012 12:13 PM
sleeper;1198442 wrote:I fundamentally disagree with the definition of atheism. There are more than two options as far as beliefs go. It's not simple I believe in God or I believe there is no God. That's only assuming monotheism, but there is also polytheistic beliefs as well. That's why the proper defintion of atheism needs to be "a person who lacks belief in gods".
"Theism" is an umbrella term to describe any worldview that involves a belief in one or more deities. As such, it is a term to define both monotheism and polytheism, just as atheism is used to describe both secular humanism and scientific naturalism. Two different worldviews with something in common: the belief that there is no deity or deities. Both theism and atheism are "umbrella" terms to describe more than one worldview, provided said worldviews fit one particular criterion.

It's perfectly acceptable to want a different definition for atheism, but the definition you describe already has a nomenclature: agnosticism.
Jun 13, 2012 12:13pm
J

jmog

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Jun 13, 2012 12:13 PM
sleeper;1198450 wrote:I think you are more upset that I'm right and you're wrong. I don't know how that feels, but your reaction is priceless.
Please point out exactly where I was wrong. I have already done so with your posts where you confuse the difference between atheism and agnosticism.
Jun 13, 2012 12:13pm
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Jun 13, 2012 12:13 PM
jmog;1198451 wrote:As otrap pointed out, it is not semantics to someone who understands the difference between atheism and agnosticism.

By the way otraps definition of theism includes both mono and poly theism to answer your other comment.
Then by definition you are an atheist. You do not believe in more than one god. Correct?
Jun 13, 2012 12:13pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 13, 2012 12:14 PM
jmog;1198454 wrote:Please point out exactly where I was wrong. I have already done so with your posts where you confuse the difference between atheism and agnosticism.
I'm not confusing anything. The discussion has morphed into defining atheism. I have presented my side, you have presented nothing.
Jun 13, 2012 12:14pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

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Jun 13, 2012 12:16 PM
sleeper;1198455 wrote:Then by definition you are an atheist. You do not believe in more than one god. Correct?
Theism:both monotheism and polytheism::mammalia:water-dwelling mammals and land-dwelling mammals

To suggest that a monotheist is not a theist because he is not also a polytheist is to make the same argument that a water-dwelling mammal is not a mammal because it is not also a land-dwelling mammal.
Jun 13, 2012 12:16pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 13, 2012 12:18 PM
Theism: a belief in gods
Atheism: a lack of belief in gods

Simple. Succinct. Accurate on all levels.
Jun 13, 2012 12:18pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 13, 2012 12:24 PM
I just find it absolutely disingenuous that believers want to make atheism seem like a religion or a faith system. It isn't. It's a logical loophole built in for believers to justify their erroneous beliefs as being no different than an atheists position.

Using this logic, we are all atheists because you do not believe in a invisible unicorn controlling everything, or the flying spaghetti monster. Is that a position of faith by NOT believing in those things? No it isn't.
Jun 13, 2012 12:24pm
J

jmog

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Jun 13, 2012 12:27 PM
sleeper;1198455 wrote:Then by definition you are an atheist. You do not believe in more than one god. Correct?
Seriously? Come on sleeper you're smarter than that.

If I believe in one God that makes me a monotheist.
If both mono and polytheists are subsets of theists then I am a theist.

Simple if/then logical conclusion.
Jun 13, 2012 12:27pm
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GoPens

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Jun 13, 2012 12:31 PM
Steel Valley Football;1197894 wrote:Then, what made us? Or, who, or what, rather altered our genes to their present form? Either one, if you know, sleeper. Or anyone else.
sleeper;1197914 wrote:I don't know the answer to that question. No one does.

Evolution isn't really disputed by any credible scientist anymore; although evolution does NOT try to explain how we got here.
Go see Prometheus. It explains it quite nicely...
Jun 13, 2012 12:31pm
J

jmog

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Jun 13, 2012 12:32 PM
sleeper;1198457 wrote:I'm not confusing anything. The discussion has morphed into defining atheism. I have presented my side, you have presented nothing.
I presented the world view differences between atheism and agnoticism that you keep getting messed up.
Jun 13, 2012 12:32pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

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Jun 13, 2012 12:34 PM
sleeper;1198459 wrote:Theism: a belief in gods
Atheism: a lack of belief in gods

Simple. Succinct. Accurate on all levels.
What you seem to be wanting isn't the case. Atheism is a belief system that asserts that a deity of any sort does not exist. Agnosticism, the term for a lack of belief in deities, is even a belief. It's a belief that one cannot know, which is the stem of its lack of belief either way.

Theism and atheism fit Aristotelian logical law that states either 'A' or not 'A' at the same time, and in the same respect. One asserts that a deity exists. The other asserts that a deity does not exist. The other option is that neither 'A' nor "not 'A'" can be known. It's a lack of belief in a deity.

Both atheism and theism pose fact claims ABOUT the existence of deity. As such, they are beliefs. Agnosticism refuses to make a fact claim about the existence of deity. As such, it is not a belief.
Jun 13, 2012 12:34pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 13, 2012 12:37 PM
jmog;1198468 wrote:Seriously? Come on sleeper you're smarter than that.

If I believe in one God that makes me a monotheist.
If both mono and polytheists are subsets of theists then I am a theist.

Simple if/then logical conclusion.
It's not a simple if/then. You don't believe in polytheism. Does this make you apolytheistic?
Jun 13, 2012 12:37pm