Poll: Eli Manning vs. Ben Roethlisberger

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hasbeen's avatar

hasbeen

Excuse me, Flo?

6,504 posts
Feb 7, 2012 11:43 AM
I'd take Eli because I feel you can design an offense around. With a big ben it's a "run around and break coverage" kind of deal.
Feb 7, 2012 11:43am
killer_ewok's avatar

killer_ewok

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Feb 7, 2012 11:51 AM
Skyhook79;1078202 wrote:Good point. It's like 700 more attempts. Ben throws about 1 pick for every 30 passes, that would add 25 more Int's to Ben total.

700 more attempts? And Ben is only 20 passing TD's and 1,000 passing yards behind him? What would that put Ben's passing TD's and passing yards at if attempts were equal?
Feb 7, 2012 11:51am
T

thavoice

Senior Member

14,376 posts
Feb 7, 2012 11:52 AM
pnhasbeen;1078305 wrote:I'd take Eli because I feel you can design an offense around. With a big ben it's a "run around and break coverage" kind of deal.
The latter part of your post is what I have been saying for years. I guess we will see with a new OC. Was it just a poor design by Arians that the best part of the O is when a play breaks down, or is Ben not as good as a 'traditional' QB in terms that he doesnt see the defense as good as the known elite QB's, doesnt anticipate WR coming open as good as the elite QB's, or just doesnt click in his mind to know what, when and where to go on certain plays in the pre snap reads like the Elite QB's.

He has a knack of running around and making big time plays in that playground type of style. He is big enough to shrug off alot of would-be sackers and move around and then it becomes backyard football.

Is that the best O because of the actual scheme not being that elaborate, or the fact that Ben doesnt "see/anticipate" routes and who should be open by his pre snap reads?

The elite QB's seem to decipher what the defense is doing, and then anticipate whom should be open and then have the ability, confidence , accuracy and just plain QB IQ to get the ball where it needs to be. Can ben do that on a routine basis?

I guess a new OFF will determine that for us.
Feb 7, 2012 11:52am
Heretic's avatar

Heretic

Son of the Sun

18,820 posts
Feb 7, 2012 11:55 AM
GoChiefs;1078132 wrote:With probably a tougher schedule as well.
Lol. The Giants played in a shitty division that 9-7 was good enough to win. Pittsburgh had two games each against two playoff teams in their division, as well as New England and San Francisco.
Feb 7, 2012 11:55am
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thavoice

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14,376 posts
Feb 7, 2012 11:58 AM
I think the diff between Ben and guys like Brees, Eli, Peyton, Rodgers, Brady (aside from the scheme that puts Pass first in most of them) is that the elite QB's make the pre-snap read accurately, and know by the coverage and routes are to be ran that who SHOULD be open, and then they throw the ball before they are "open" and place the ball right where it needs to be. If they get a mis-read as pre-snap they seem to be able to act quickly with a post-snap read and know exactly where to go, and then deliver the pass.


I dont think Ben is at that level yet. It isnt really a knock on him, because he is a great QB and comparing him to the most elite QBs of all time isnt bashing him a bit. I just think for BR to become an ELITE QB he needs to be able to do those things.
Feb 7, 2012 11:58am
Automatik's avatar

Automatik

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14,632 posts
Feb 7, 2012 1:35 PM
thavoice;1078331 wrote:I think the diff between Ben and guys like Brees, Eli, Peyton, Rodgers, Brady (aside from the scheme that puts Pass first in most of them) is that the elite QB's make the pre-snap read accurately, and know by the coverage and routes are to be ran that who SHOULD be open, and then they throw the ball before they are "open" and place the ball right where it needs to be. If they get a mis-read as pre-snap they seem to be able to act quickly with a post-snap read and know exactly where to go, and then deliver the pass.


I dont think Ben is at that level yet. It isnt really a knock on him, because he is a great QB and comparing him to the most elite QBs of all time isnt bashing him a bit. I just think for BR to become an ELITE QB he needs to be able to do those things.
He's shown that he can do it out of the gun in a no huddle, but definitely not as consistent as the ones you just mentioned. It's going to be interesting to see how the new scheme and OC pan out.
Feb 7, 2012 1:35pm
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thavoice

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14,376 posts
Feb 7, 2012 2:04 PM
Automatik;1078452 wrote:He's shown that he can do it out of the gun in a no huddle, but definitely not as consistent as the ones you just mentioned. It's going to be interesting to see how the new scheme and OC pan out.
No huddle seems to almost be a different animal. The defenses usually are more in a base defense as they DCOord doesnt have enough time to really get a good call in. Also, the point in the pre snap is to get the defense to basically declare what they are running, and in the no huddle defense also seem to not be able to come out with a 'fake' look and instead come out in a look that they are actually gonna run.

WIth that said...why dont teams always go NH? Ya can really tire out your own defenses and you also usually limit what you can run offensively as well.

An ex player, now commentator, asked why, since no huddle at the end of halfs/games works often, teams dont to it more often. His response was something I hadnt thought of...and that is the urgency of the situation. The urgency of the end of a half/game heightens the alertness of the offense. Almost like hte last at bat in a baseball game in a close game. Teams seem to even harder to get out in that last inning when their backs are against the wall and if ya just could bottle that late game heroics to use early in a game would make it perfect
Feb 7, 2012 2:04pm
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thavoice

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14,376 posts
Feb 7, 2012 2:27 PM
The relationship btween ben and Arians was said to be a good one, and one joked it was like Uncle Bruce and nephew ben type of relationship.
To a point that could be good, but I could also see a bit of a downfall to it as it could be TOO relaxed.
Feb 7, 2012 2:27pm
I

I Am Ahab

Senior Member

478 posts
Feb 7, 2012 3:33 PM
Eli's best football is ahead of him. Fat Ben is getting more beat up and out of shape day by day judging by the amount of chins he's growing.

Eli all day. Like someone already said, Eli isn't a rapist POS so he has that going for him too.
Feb 7, 2012 3:33pm
justincredible's avatar

justincredible

Nick Mangold

32,056 posts
Feb 7, 2012 3:45 PM
Heretic;1078330 wrote:Lol. The Giants played in a shitty division that 9-7 was good enough to win. Pittsburgh had two games each against two playoff teams in their division, as well as New England and San Francisco.
The Giants also had to beat the #1 seeds is both the NFC and AFC, as well as the #2 seed in the NFC to win the Super Bowl. I'd say that evened out the schedule difficulty a little bit.
Feb 7, 2012 3:45pm
Heretic's avatar

Heretic

Son of the Sun

18,820 posts
Feb 7, 2012 3:50 PM
justincredible;1078705 wrote:The Giants also had to beat the #1 seeds is both the NFC and AFC, as well as the #2 seed in the NFC to win the Super Bowl. I'd say that evened out the schedule difficulty a little bit.
Well, yeah, if you count the playoffs. But when the post basically says that they were 9-7 and probably had a tougher schedule, I took that to mean the 16-game regular season.
Feb 7, 2012 3:50pm
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thavoice

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14,376 posts
Feb 7, 2012 3:53 PM
Its the NFL so i dont really care to "look at the schedule" type of thing. It isnt like in college where a QB and team can light it up against a subpar team that has zero guys good enough to play for your team. There arent any "Houstons or Boise State" type of schedules for NFL teams

Sure, passing for 316 yards against a pittsburgh Def looks more imprssive than a NE defense, but in the end both are professional teams.

I guess ya can look a little bit into it for a short stretch of a season but over the course of the season it pretty much evens itself out.
Feb 7, 2012 3:53pm
said_aouita's avatar

said_aouita

Banned

8,532 posts
Feb 7, 2012 4:18 PM
Looking at it more from a business decision- Eli is not nearly as dumb as Ben.

From ESPN 2006-

"Roethlisberger remained in serious but stable condition after seven hours of surgery that ended at approximately 9 p.m. ET, according to Dr. Daniel Pituch, chief of oral and maxillofacial surgery at Mercy Hospital.
"He suffered multiple facial fractures," Pituch said at a news conference. "All of the fractures were successfully repaired. His brain, spine, chest and abdomen appear to be without serious injury. And there are no other confirmed injuries at this time."

The doctors declined to release further information at the family's request.

ESPN.com's John Clayton has confirmed that Roethlisberger also suffered a 9-inch laceration to the back of his head, has lost or chipped a number of teeth and has minor injuries to his knees from hitting the pavement."
Feb 7, 2012 4:18pm
GoChiefs's avatar

GoChiefs

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Feb 7, 2012 6:20 PM
Heretic;1078330 wrote:Lol. The Giants played in a shitty division that 9-7 was good enough to win. Pittsburgh had two games each against two playoff teams in their division, as well as New England and San Francisco.
justincredible;1078711 wrote:Actually, the Giants had the 8th hardest schedule. The Steelers had the 19th hardest schedule.

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/1299408-nfl-strength-of-schedule-after-week-17-2011
Boom.
Feb 7, 2012 6:20pm
Heretic's avatar

Heretic

Son of the Sun

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Feb 8, 2012 12:03 PM
justincredible;1078711 wrote:Actually, the Giants had the 8th hardest schedule. The Steelers had the 19th hardest schedule.

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/1299408-nfl-strength-of-schedule-after-week-17-2011
Really? Guess the two games with Cleveland and scheduling the entire AFC South (Houston and three mediocre to bad teams) and NFC West (same; replace Houston with San Fran) hurt their schedule more than I thought.
Feb 8, 2012 12:03pm
dwccrew's avatar

dwccrew

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7,817 posts
Feb 13, 2012 9:16 PM
There is a reason Eli was the #1 pick in 2004 and Ben couldn't crack the top ten. Also, Eli has never raped a woman (to my knowledge).
Feb 13, 2012 9:16pm
killer_ewok's avatar

killer_ewok

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Feb 13, 2012 10:34 PM
ccrunner609;1085150 wrote:If I want to party like a rock star I pick Ben, if I want to win in the NFL, Eli.

Only 3 QB's in the Super Bowl era have reached 75 wins in fewer career starts than Ben. Those 3 were Tom Brady, Roger Staubach and Ken Stabler. Ben definitely wins in the NFL.
Feb 13, 2012 10:34pm
killer_ewok's avatar

killer_ewok

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Feb 13, 2012 10:44 PM
dwccrew;1085145 wrote:There is a reason Eli was the #1 pick in 2004 and Ben couldn't crack the top ten.

And Tom Brady couldn't crack the top 198 in his draft class. Does it really matter whether a player was drafted 1st (Eli), 11th (Ben) or 199th (Brady)?
Feb 13, 2012 10:44pm
hasbeen's avatar

hasbeen

Excuse me, Flo?

6,504 posts
Feb 13, 2012 10:55 PM
killer_ewok;1085247 wrote:Only 3 QB's in the Super Bowl era have reached 75 wins in fewer career starts than Ben. Those 3 were Tom Brady, Roger Staubach and Ken Stabler. Ben definitely wins in the NFL.

Teams win games. I don't find that to be relevant seeing how good his teams were.
Feb 13, 2012 10:55pm
killer_ewok's avatar

killer_ewok

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Feb 13, 2012 11:08 PM
pnhasbeen;1085289 wrote:Teams win games. I don't find that to be relevant seeing how good his teams were.

I was replying to someone who apparently values wins as a measuring stick for how good a QB is. So it was relevant to that person/point.

But since you made mention of how good Ben's teams were....I always find it funny when people talk about how good his defense and run game have been and credit them instead of giving him any credit. Thing is, the Steelers almost always have had a very good defense and rushing attack. Kordell had that luxury more often than not as did Tommy Maddox but those QB's didn't get the Steelers to the Super Bowl with damn good defenses/rushing attacks, let alone win two.
Feb 13, 2012 11:08pm