Crimson streak;1071353 wrote:He would but it would still be better than anything we have had since 99 lol. It's sad but true. But if he doesn't work out he's quick enough to move to receiver

SportsAndLady;1071367 wrote:Too much bias didn't read

DeyDurkie5;1071384 wrote:Here's how I see things with this team...

Offense: We have no playmakers. It's as simple as that. When your number 1 receiver is mo mass, you know your offense is in trouble. Our Rb situation was completely fucked this year, with injuries and pre madonnas expecting money(hillis). Although I think our RB siutation is great when healthy. I like having hillis, jackson, hardesty, and OBY. Our line got side swiped by the fact steinbach wasn't going to be able to play all year, and that def hurt and it showed. With McCoy, I am in the minority in the fact that I think with a line to protect him and playmakers around him, he would do enough to not lose. He showed some flashes of great qb play, and he also showed some awful, awful throws. The whole thing with him, is that it was one year. One year and we are already looking to dump him like he's just awful. That's what I don't agree with. I don't think this sample size is enough to give a definitive answer on him. Although I seee BR's point about hte front office, they are in a scramble ot get something together in the next 2 years for Holmgren's ego. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

Defense: I think our defense is a couple players away from being an elite defense. An OLB, another DE, and a Safety to pair with Ward. Defense isn't as troublesome to me, which is why I don't want the draft to be defense at all. In fact, I think you try and get those spots cleared up through free agency. After that, it's all about depth. Getting players that can play behind those starters. Depth is my biggest concern with the defense, not to mention an offense that can't wait to get off the field to fuck our defense in the ass.

As for the QB situation, I want them to get playmakers around the position. I think with gamechanging WR's and a steady line, McCoy will have the confidence to stay in the pocket and look into his reads. This is not to say that I am "in love" with McCoy, it's just that I don't feel the sample size is big enough to judge him. Now if we pull the trigger on a QB in the first round, or get Flynn in free agency I will love it. I'm all for winning now, but at the same time I feel there are much bigger needs on the team than fixing the QB position. I think we should trade back with that first pick, and try and go DE, S or a LB with that first pick. Assuming we hit on the pick, that will give our defense a young core to work around. Then go with offense the rest of the draft(similar to what Houston did this past draft going all defense).

Also, I got my season ticket location, and it's upper dawg pound

se-alum;1071393 wrote:????

DeyDurkie5;1071395 wrote:With the trade back, I don't see much offensively in the area we would be trading back. Maybe richardson, but our rb's are good enough. I prob should change it, but fuck it

DeyDurkie5;1071384 wrote:Here's how I see things with this team...

Offense: We have no playmakers. It's as simple as that. When your number 1 receiver is mo mass, you know your offense is in trouble. Our Rb situation was completely ****ed this year, with injuries and pre madonnas expecting money(hillis). Although I think our RB siutation is great when healthy. I like having hillis, jackson, hardesty, and OBY. Our line got side swiped by the fact steinbach wasn't going to be able to play all year, and that def hurt and it showed. With McCoy, I am in the minority in the fact that I think with a line to protect him and playmakers around him, he would do enough to not lose. He showed some flashes of great qb play, and he also showed some awful, awful throws. The whole thing with him, is that it was one year. One year and we are already looking to dump him like he's just awful. That's what I don't agree with. I don't think this sample size is enough to give a definitive answer on him. Although I seee BR's point about hte front office, they are in a scramble ot get something together in the next 2 years for Holmgren's ego. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

Defense: I think our defense is a couple players away from being an elite defense. An OLB, another DE, and a Safety to pair with Ward. Defense isn't as troublesome to me, which is why I don't want the draft to be defense at all. In fact, I think you try and get those spots cleared up through free agency. After that, it's all about depth. Getting players that can play behind those starters. Depth is my biggest concern with the defense, not to mention an offense that can't wait to get off the field to **** our defense in the ass.

As for the QB situation, I want them to get playmakers around the position. I think with gamechanging WR's and a steady line, McCoy will have the confidence to stay in the pocket and look into his reads. This is not to say that I am "in love" with McCoy, it's just that I don't feel the sample size is big enough to judge him. Now if we pull the trigger on a QB in the first round, or get Flynn in free agency I will love it. I'm all for winning now, but at the same time I feel there are much bigger needs on the team than fixing the QB position. I think we should trade back with that first pick, and try and go DE, S or a LB with that first pick. Assuming we hit on the pick, that will give our defense a young core to work around. Then go with offense the rest of the draft(similar to what Houston did this past draft going all defense).

Also, I got my season ticket location, and it's upper dawg pound

DeyDurkie5;1071384 wrote:Here's how I see things with this team...

Offense: We have no playmakers. It's as simple as that. When your number 1 receiver is mo mass, you know your offense is in trouble. Our Rb situation was completely fucked this year, with injuries and pre madonnas expecting money(hillis). Although I think our RB siutation is great when healthy. I like having hillis, jackson, hardesty, and OBY. Our line got side swiped by the fact steinbach wasn't going to be able to play all year, and that def hurt and it showed. With McCoy, I am in the minority in the fact that I think with a line to protect him and playmakers around him, he would do enough to not lose. He showed some flashes of great qb play, and he also showed some awful, awful throws. The whole thing with him, is that it was one year. One year and we are already looking to dump him like he's just awful. That's what I don't agree with. I don't think this sample size is enough to give a definitive answer on him. Although I seee BR's point about hte front office, they are in a scramble ot get something together in the next 2 years for Holmgren's ego. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

Defense: I think our defense is a couple players away from being an elite defense. An OLB, another DE, and a Safety to pair with Ward. Defense isn't as troublesome to me, which is why I don't want the draft to be defense at all. In fact, I think you try and get those spots cleared up through free agency. After that, it's all about depth. Getting players that can play behind those starters. Depth is my biggest concern with the defense, not to mention an offense that can't wait to get off the field to fuck our defense in the ass.

As for the QB situation, I want them to get playmakers around the position. I think with gamechanging WR's and a steady line, McCoy will have the confidence to stay in the pocket and look into his reads. This is not to say that I am "in love" with McCoy, it's just that I don't feel the sample size is big enough to judge him. Now if we pull the trigger on a QB in the first round, or get Flynn in free agency I will love it. I'm all for winning now, but at the same time I feel there are much bigger needs on the team than fixing the QB position. I think we should trade back with that first pick, and try and go DE, S or a LB with that first pick. Assuming we hit on the pick, that will give our defense a young core to work around. Then go with offense the rest of the draft(similar to what Houston did this past draft going all defense).

Also, I got my season ticket location, and it's upper dawg pound

se-alum;1071400 wrote:If we were to trade back, I'd like to grab Wright, then maybe a RT w/ our 2nd pick, and Sanu w/ the 3rd pick.

DeyDurkie5;1071417 wrote:I dont like that...I think a defensive position of need needs to be addressed in the first round, especially with a move back

se-alum;1071420 wrote:I based it off what they have now. I think they get a RT in FA, so I would be find with a defensive pick, but with the 2nd 1st rounder.

DeyDurkie5;1071428 wrote:If we could get a stud OLB with that first pick, I would have no problem going offense the rest of the draft

se-alum;1071439 wrote:Problem is, I don't see any stud OLB's. There's some guys that may be 3-4 rush LB's, but no good 4-3 guys. In fact, I don't see any studs at the defensive positions of need for the Browns.

se-alum;1071439 wrote:Problem is, I don't see any stud OLB's. There's some guys that may be 3-4 rush LB's, but no good 4-3 guys. In fact, I don't see any studs at the defensive positions of need for the Browns.

lhslep134;1071462 wrote:There's a couple elite DE's that could play opposite of Sheard to round out the d-line that we could trade back to. Coples or Ingram come to mind.

Crimson streak;1071444 wrote:Barron could be a stud at safety but I agree that's about it

BR1986FB;1071467 wrote:No thanks on Coples. Heard an interview where he said he's not very comfortable playing RDE, which is where they need someone. .

lhslep134;1071473 wrote:Well what DE IS comfortable going against the other team's best offensive lineman? At some point someone's gotta man up and do it, and I think Coples has more than enough talent to be an top of the line DE if he can just put effort into learning how to beat a LT.

I read a thread where someone had mentioned Phil Savage had cost us the most in the draft and then someone followed up with that Butch Davis was the worst, so I went back and just reviewed past Coach/GM tandems and how the picks went.

Chris Palmer and Carmen Policy

Players that contributed
1999 Draft:
Rd. 2- (WR Kevin Johnson) He wasn't the greatest WR but did have an 84 rec, 1097 yds, 9 TD season in 2001.
Rd.3- (CB Daylon McCutcheon) Another decent value pick, McCutcheon was the longest tenured pick in 1999 staying with the team until 2005.
Rd. 4- (Wali Rainer)- Okay value for the pick. He led the team in tackles his rookie year with 136. Started all 3 years before traded to Jacksonville so Cleveland could move up 3 spots and select Melvin Fowler.
2000 Draft:
Rd. 2- (WR Dennis Northcutt) He had the dropsies sure, but Northcutt was the longest tenured member of the class playing from 2000-06 leading the team in receptions in 2003 and 2004. He left as the 10th ranked reciever in team history with 276 rec, 3438 yds, and 9 TD's.
Rd. 4- (TE Aaron Shea) Spent 6 seasons in Cleveland mostly as a backup. Had his best year with Heiden in 04 scoring 4 TD's. Finished with 97 rec, 851 yds, 7 TD's.

Busts or non-contributers
1999 Draft:
Rd. 1- (QB Tim Couch) First draft for the new Browns and Tim Couch is the guy. Horrible o-line, constant sacks and pressures, little surrounding weapons will forever leave fans arguing if Couch could have been a good QB if he had protection and time to develop but facts are facts: he didn't, being mediocre at best. He did however throw for 3000 yards in a season and helped lead Cleveland to the playoffs in 2002. He was out after 2003 and never started another NFL game. But hey at least he wasn't Akili Smith.
Rd. 2- (LB Rahim Abdullah) 2nd round pick played 2 years. Total 2 sacks and 1 INT.
Rd. 3- (DB Marquis Smith) 3 seasons, 9 total tackles.
Rd. 5- (WR Darrin Chiaverini ) 2 seasons, 555 yds, 5 TD's
Rd. 6- (DT Marcus Spriggs) 3 seasons, 2 total sacks
Rd. 6- (LB Kendall Ogle) 2 seasons, appeared in 2 games
Rd. 6- (TE James Dearth) 1 season
Rd. 7- (RB Madre Hill) 2 seasons, returned 8 kicks for 137 yds.
2000 Draft:
Rd 1- (DE Courtney Brown) When healthy he was a stud, but he never was. 5 injury plagued seasons in which he missed 33 games Brown produced 17 sacks, 125 tackles, and 7 forced fumbles.
Rd. 3- (RB Travis Prentice) 1 season, 11 starts, 512 yards, 3.0 avg, 7 TDs
Rd. 3- (WR JaJaun Dawson) 2 seasons 31 rec, 378 yds, 2 TDs
Rd. 4- (DB Lewis Sanders) Iffy pick for non-contributers but he didn't do much until his last two seasons. 5 seasons 70 tackles, 4 INTs
Rd. 5- (CB Anthony Malbrough) 1 season 13 tackles
Rd. 5- (CB Lamar Chapman)
Rd. 6- (QB Spergeon Wynn) Yes, the guy we took instead of Tom Brady. 1 season, 46.1% comp, 585 yds, 1 TD, 7 INT, 39.5 QB Rat.
Rd. 6- (OT Brad BeDell) 2 seasons, 4 starts
Rd. 7- (OG Manua Savia) Never played
Rd. 7- (DE Eric Chandler) Never played
Rd 7- (DB Rashidi Barnes) 1 season

Butch Davis Era

Players that contibuted
2001 Draft:
Rd. 4- (CB Anthony Henry) He was a very decent starter recording 10 INTs his rookie year. Played 4 seasons with 217 tackles, 17 INTs, and 1 TD.
2002 Draft:
Rd. 2- (WR Andre Davis) An iffy for the productive side but Davis did show some results on the field. 3 seasons produced 93 rec, 1412 yds, and 13 TDs.
Rd. 3- (C Melvin Fowler) Most of the 2002 class were meh picks, no one really tanked but no one lit it up either so I'm iffy on a lot of these guys. Fowler only lasted 3 seasons but he was good backup who was a decent spot starter. 30 games, 14 starts. Traded to Minnesota
Rd. 5- (LB Andra Davis) Good value for a 5th round pick. 7 seasons, 641 tackles, 8.5 sacks, 8 INTs, 4 FF. 6 year starter.
2003 Draft:
Rd. 1- (C Jeff Faine) 3 seasons as a pretty good starter. When all-star C LeCharles Bentley signed Faine was traded to move up and take D'Qwell Jackson. Bentley got hurt and we all know the rest.
Rd. 3- (DB Cris Crocker) 3 seasons. Played backup 2 seasons before starting final one. 172 tackles, 4 sacks, 3 INTs, 2 FF.
Rd.5- (LS Ryan Ponbriand) Probably the best pick of the draft. Pontbriand was an elite longsnapper from 03-10 before two bad snpas cost him his job this season. Played 9 seasons.
2004 Draft:
Rd. 1- (TE Kellen Winslow) Winslow can easily be called a bust but this was about the only good pick of the draft even though we idiotically gave up our 2nd rounder to move up one spot. Winslow had his health and mental issues but the guy was a player. Played 5 seasons, the first two virtually wiped out by injury. His last three years he caught 214 rec, 2429 yds, and 11 TD's. Was traded to TB for 2nd round pick.
Rd. 2- (DB Sean Jones) trading our 3rd round pick to nab Jones he didn't play much his first two seasons but spent 5 with the Browns collecting 286 tackles, 1 sack, 14 INTs.

Busts or Non-contributers
2001 Draft:
Rd. 1- (DT Gerrard Warren) Of the first 7 players selected 6 made pro-bowls the only one not to was the #3 pick Warren. Passing up players like Seymour and Tomlinson, Warren played 4 lackluster seasons with 150 tackles, 16.5 sacks and 4 forced fumbles.
Rd. 2- (WR Quincy Morgan) Similar to Warren, picks #30-36 produced 6 probowlers. The only one who wasn't was Morgan at #33. 4 seasons produced 133 rec, 2056 yards, and 15 TDs. Inconsistant play and poor hands led him being traded for Antonio Bryant in 2004.
Rd. 3- (RB James Jackson) 4 seasons, 1071 yds, 3.3 avg, 5 TDs
Rd. 5- (LB Jeremiah Pharms) Never played
Rd. 6- (DB Michael Jameson) 5 seasons, 49 tackles, 1 INT, 3 FF
Rd. 7- (OG Paul Zukauskis) 4 seasons
Rd. 7- (WR Andre King) 4 seasons, 30 rec, 327 yds, 0 TDs
2002 Draft:
Rd. 1- (RB William Green) Keeping to his namesake, drugs and other off the field errors helped detract an otherwise promising career. 4 seasons in Cleveland netted 2109 rushing yards, a 3.7 avg, and 9 TD's. Lost starting job to Lee Suggs.
Rd. 4- (LB Kevin Bentley) 3 seasons 196 tackles, 0 sacks, 1 INT
Rd. 4- (LB Ben Taylor) 4 seasons, 206 tackles, 0 sacks, 1 INT
Rd. 4- (TE Darnell Sanders) 2 seasons, 18 rec, 118 yds, 2 TDs
Rd. 7- (OT Juaquin Gonzalez) 2 seasons
2003 Draft:
Rd. 2- (LB Chaun Thompson) A very high reach in the 2nd round Thompson was a raw athlete who tremendous upside but very very raw. He played 5 seasons and while never contibuting much as a starter he was a beast in special teams. 5 seasons, 212 tackles, 10.5 sacks, 0 INT, 2 FF.
Rd. 4- (RB Lee Suggs) 3 seasons. The Courtney Brown of RB's, just could not stay healthy. Ran for 179 yards in his first start against Cincy and beat out William Green the following season but always hurt. 3 seasons, 1074 yards, 4.0 avg, 4 TDs.
Rd. 5- (DB Michael Lehan) 3 seasons, 52 tackles, 1 INT, 1 sack
Rd. 6- (DT Antonio Garay) 2 seasons, 4 tackles
2004 Draft:
Rd. 4- (QB Luke McCown) 1 season, 49% comp, 608 yds, 4 TD, 7 INT, 52.6 RAT.
Rd. 5- (DE Amon Gordon) 2 seasons, 10 tackles
Rd. 6- (OT Kirk Chambers) 2 seasons, 0 starts
Rd. 7- (RB Adimchinobi Echemandu) 1 season, 25 yds

Romeo Crennel/Phil Savage Era

Players that contributed
2005 Draft:
Rd 1- (WR Braylon Edwards) A complete headcase and dropped too many crucial passes, no one can deny he was the best WR this team had since it came back into the league. His 2007 season had him catching 80 balls for 1289 yds and 16 TD's and making the Pro-Bowl. He played five seasons with 238 Rec, 3697 yds, and 28 TD's. Was traded 4 games into the 2009 season for Chansi Stuckey, Jason Trusnik, and a 3rd and 5th round pick.
Rd 2- (DB Brodney Pool) Was a decent starter for us, unfortunately concussions became too common and he was released in following 2009. Played 5 seasons, 49 starts, 275 tackles, 11 INTs, and 2 FF.
2006 Draft:
Rd 1- (LB Kamerion Wimbley) An average player for us though we passed on Ngata to get him. Great rookie campaign with 11 sacks but never duplicated it. Played 4 seasons with 183 tackles, 26.5 Sacks, 1 INT, 7 FF. Was traded in 2010 for a 3rd round pick which was used on Colt McCoy.
Rd 2- (LB D'Qwell Jackson) The only member of the class still on the team, has been solid and seems a natural fit now for the 4-3 being the 1st alternate to the Pro-Bowl this season. Injuries cost him a majority of 2 seasons but he played 6 seasons here with 565 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 5 INTs, and 2 FF.
Rd 5- (RB Jerome Harrison) I put him on here for the simple fact of what he was able to do at the end of the 2009 season including his 286 yard, 3 TD rushing performance against KC setting the Browns single game rushing record which today still holds at 3rd all time. He played 4+ seasons, rushed for 1401 yards, 4.5 avg, 61 Rec, 445 yads, 9 total TD's. Was traded in 2010 after losing his starting job to Hillis for Mike Bell.
Rd 6- (FB Lawrence Vickers) Stats can't do justice what he was able to do for our running game. Still disappointed he was let go. Played 5 seasons.
2007 Draft:
Rd 1- (LT Joe Thomas) Best pick since our return by far. Has started every game in his career, is a 5 time Pro-Bowler and one of the best LT’s in the game today.
Rd 2- (CB Eric Wright) Even though he was torched his final season here, Wright had 2 very solid seasons in 08/09. He played 4 seasons, started 55 games, 249 tackles, 1 sack, 9 INTs, 2 FF and 1 def TD. Left as a free agent last season.
Rd 5- (CB Brandon McDonald) Could just as easily gone as a bust but he was a 5th round pick who started 27 games in 3 seasons. Finished with 154 tackles, 1 sack, 8 INTs, 2 FF and 1 def TD.
2008 Draft:
Rd 6- (DT Ahtyba Rubin) The only good thing to come out of this draft class. Is a solid starter. Four seasons, 37 starts, 214 tackles, 7 sacks, 1 INT, 1 FF.

Busts or non-contributers
2005 Draft:
Rd 3- (QB Charlie Frye) We all know the book on Frye and it ain't a great read. Lasted just over 2 seasons passing for 3490 yds, 62% Comp, 14 TD, 23 INT, 11 lost fumbles. Traded one game into the 2007 season for a 6th round pick giving Derek Anderson the starting job.
Rd 4- (DB Antonio Perkins) 2 seasons, 2 tackles
Rd 5- (LB David McMillan) 3 seasons, 8 tackles
Rd 6- (LB Nick Speegle) 1+ season, 10 tackles
Rd 6- (DL Andrew Hoffman) 1 season, no stats
Rd 7- (OT Jon Dunn) 1 season, no stats
2006 Draft:
Rd 3- (WR Travis Wilson) The supposed best WR in the NFL draft finished his career with just 2 Rec for 32 yards. He was released after 2 seasons.
Rd 4- (LB Leon Williams) Another bubble player. Started 12 games but wasn’t very good as I recall. 4 seasons, 163 tackles, 5 sacks, 0 INT, 1 FF.
Rd 4- (OG Isaac Sowells) Played 3 seasons, appeared in 17 games, 0 starts.
Rd 5- (CB DeMario Minter) Injured before season started, never played. 1 season.
Rd 6- (DT Babatunde Oshinowo) The extra pick we got for Ngata/Wimbley. 1 season, 2 tackles.
Rd 7- (DB Justin Hamilton) 1 season, appeared in 10 games, 0 starts, 16 tackles.
2007 Draft:
Rd 1- (QB Brady Quinn) Discussed being a potential top 5 pick, Cleveland traded their 2007 2nd round pick and their 2008 1st round pick to swipe him at #22. The return was 3 poor seasons in Cleveland before being shipped off in 2010 for Hillis and a 6th round pick. He finished with 12 starts, 1902 yards, 52.1% comp, 10 TDs, 9 INTs, and a 66.8 QB Rat.
Rd 6- (DL Melila Purcell) Spent 2 seasons on the practice squad, no starts.
Rd 7- (DL Chase Pittman) Spent 1 season on the practice squad.
2008 Draft:
Rd 4- (LB Beau Bell) After giving up our first 3 round picks for players (1st for Quinn, 2nd for Williams, and a 3rd for Rodgers) Beau Bell was our first pick of the 2008 draft. He played 1 season, appeared in 5 games totaling 3 tackles and 1 FF.
Rd 4- (TE Martin Rucker) With Winslow’s injuries and contract being a concern we traded up to draft Rucker. He played 1+ season totaling 2 Rec, for 17 yards. He was released in 2009.
Rd 6- (WR Paul Hubbard) 1 season, no stats
Rd 7- (LB Alex Hall) Spent 2 seasons as depth totaling 39 tackles, 3 sacks, and 2 FF. Traded as a package in 2010 for Sheldon Brown and Gocong.

Mangini/Kokinis

Players who contributed
2009 Draft:
Rd 1- (OC Alex Mack) How we went from #5 to #21 is a bust in itself. For #5 we essentially got Mack, Veikune, James Davis, Coye Francies, Able Elam, Kenyon Coleman, and Brett Ratliff. Only Mack remains with the team and has been a pretty good player having made the Pro-bowl. He’s played 3 seasons and started every game.
Rd 4- (LB Kaluka Maiava) Not a starter by any means but he is decent depth who can spot start when needed. 3 seasons, 80 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 3 FF.

Busts or non-contributers
2009 Draft:
Rd 2- (WR Brian Robiskie) An utter bust at his position. Robiskie was said to be one of the most NFL ready WR’s in the draft. He never produced last 2.5 seasons with 39 rec, 441 yards and 3 TDs. Cut this season to make room for RB Thomas Clayton.
Rd 2- (WR Mohammad Massaquoi) He’s been a disappointment thus far. After an impressive rookie season he has failed to match those same numbers as they’ve dropped every year since. In 3 seasons he’s caught 101 balls for 1491 yards and 7 TD’s.
Rd 2- (LB David Veikune) Mangini’s high-motor guy. He lasted all of one season with 0 starts and 0 tackles. 2009 was possibly the worst selection of 2nd rounders by a team in draft history.
Rd 6- (DB Don Carey) Was waived/injury before the start of 2009 season.
Rd 6- (CB Coye Francies) 2 seasons, 0 starts, 7 tackles
Rd 6- (RB James Davis) Everyone’s favorite pre-season RB, lasted 1+ season totaling 24 yards and a 2.0 YPC avg.

Commander of Awesome;1071484 wrote:Yeah total fuck up by the organization. Still Couch could have been good if he had a line in front of him. He got his ass beat every game. Line was much worse than the line this past season where people say McCoy is running for his life.