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like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Dec 25, 2011 8:34 PM
jordo212000;1026871 wrote:St. Louis Cardinals won the World Series year and the Giants won before that. Both had middling payrolls. I have no idea how people continue to use this talking point with a straight face
SMFH... We have gone over this many times now, and it keeps going over your head. I never said low-mid payroll teams can't win the WS. The fact of the matter is certain teams can't resign their best players, because those players are going to be getting ridiculous offers. Let me know how happy you are when the reds can't resign the rest of their better players after this season. have no idea how people continue to use this talking point with a straight face.

BTW the Giants had a top 10 payroll, and the cards had a payroll over 100 million. Nice fail though.
Dec 25, 2011 8:34pm
Laley23's avatar

Laley23

GOAT

29,506 posts
Dec 25, 2011 10:37 PM
I try to go to 1 Browns and 1 Tribe game each year. Cant make much more than that not living in Cleveland.
Dec 25, 2011 10:37pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

Senior Member

10,664 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:17 PM
like_that;1026878 wrote:SMFH... We have gone over this many times now, and it keeps going over your head. I never said low-mid payroll teams can't win the WS. The fact of the matter is certain teams can't resign their best players, because those players are going to be getting ridiculous offers. Let me know how happy you are when the reds can't resign the rest of their better players after this season. have no idea how people continue to use this talking point with a straight face.

BTW the Giants had a top 10 payroll, and the cards had a payroll over 100 million. Nice fail though.
In 2010 the Giants ranked 10th in payroll and this past year, the Cardinals ranked 11th. Spending mega money has nothing to do with winning a world series. That has been established over and over again. The Rays have been a contender over the 4-5 years and they ranked 2nd to last in payroll. Also, some food for thought is that the average team payroll in baseball is $93 million. Let's not act like $100 million is some lofty, unreachable payroll number.

I know your big thing is that teams "can't keep their best players." That happens in all sports. Players come and go and free agents can sign wherever they like. This isn't a new phenomena.

Besides, saying that they can't keep their best player is a misnomer. In baseball, they actually can sign their best player. There is no salary cap. Teams just choose not to. Or the player chooses to use his right as a player to go to a traditional winner, somewhere closer to home, or a nicer climate. I know that if I was a free agent and had a choice, there is no way I would sign to play in Cincy, Cleveland, Detroit, or Pittsburgh.
Dec 25, 2011 11:17pm
Laley23's avatar

Laley23

GOAT

29,506 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:27 PM
jordo212000;1027056 wrote:Also, some food for thought is that the average team payroll in baseball is $93 million. Let's not act like $100 million is some lofty, unreachable payroll number.
Whats the average when Boston, NYY, and Philly are taken out, as well as the bottom 3?

That will be closer to what the average team is paying.
Dec 25, 2011 11:27pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

Senior Member

10,664 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:30 PM
Laley23;1027063 wrote:Whats the average when Boston, NYY, and Philly are taken out, as well as the bottom 3?

That will be closer to what the average team is paying.
Removing the top 3 and bottom 3, the avg. payroll is $89 million

Payroll numbers are from: http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries
Dec 25, 2011 11:30pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:30 PM
Laley23;1027063 wrote:Whats the average when Boston, NYY, and Philly are taken out, as well as the bottom 3?

That will be closer to what the average team is paying.
yep, guessing that average is inflated big time by those 3
Dec 25, 2011 11:30pm
like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:35 PM
Pick6;1027065 wrote:yep, guessing that average is inflated big time by those 3
Let's not forget the 50+ million bid that the sox made just to talk to Daisuke. That isn't factored into the payroll. Plenty of teams are able to spend 50 million to just negotiate with a player though /sarcasm.
Dec 25, 2011 11:35pm
Classyposter58's avatar

Classyposter58

Senior Member

6,321 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:37 PM
jordo212000;1027056 wrote:In 2010 the Giants ranked 10th in payroll and this past year, the Cardinals ranked 11th. Spending mega money has nothing to do with winning a world series. That has been established over and over again. The Rays have been a contender over the 4-5 years and they ranked 2nd to last in payroll. Also, some food for thought is that the average team payroll in baseball is $93 million. Let's not act like $100 million is some lofty, unreachable payroll number.

I know your big thing is that teams "can't keep their best players." That happens in all sports. Players come and go and free agents can sign wherever they like. This isn't a new phenomena.

Besides, saying that they can't keep their best player is a misnomer. In baseball, they actually can sign their best player. There is no salary cap. Teams just choose not to. Or the player chooses to use his right as a player to go to a traditional winner, somewhere closer to home, or a nicer climate. I know that if I was a free agent and had a choice, there is no way I would sign to play in Cincy, Cleveland, Detroit, or Pittsburgh.
Why not Detroit? Great organization and sports town. Also it has the most affluent suburbs in the Midwest to live at
Dec 25, 2011 11:37pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

Senior Member

10,664 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:39 PM
like_that;1027071 wrote:Let's not forget the 50+ million bid that the sox made just to talk to Daisuke. That isn't factored into the payroll. Plenty of teams are able to spend 50 million to just negotiate with a player though /sarcasm.
That was an awesome use of $50 million wasn't it? Other teams bid on Matsusaka. They were just the team who made the most ridiculous offer.
Dec 25, 2011 11:39pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:40 PM
Classyposter58;1027072 wrote:Why not Detroit? Great organization and sports town. Also it has the most affluent suburbs in the Midwest to live at
Its jordo. He thinks every athlete wants to play in a large market in nice weather and is a bandwagoner (just like him)
Dec 25, 2011 11:40pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

Senior Member

10,664 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:41 PM
Classyposter58;1027072 wrote:Why not Detroit? Great organization and sports town. Also it has the most affluent suburbs in the Midwest to live at
Living in the midwest has ruined me haha. I'd be going somewhere a little warmer. Plus, if I was one of those guys I would probably want to go to cities with better night life and hotter women. (LA, San Diego, Miami, etc.)
Dec 25, 2011 11:41pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

Senior Member

10,664 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:42 PM
Pick6;1027075 wrote:Its jordo. He thinks every athlete wants to play in a large market in nice weather
Hasn't this been overwhelmingly been proven to be true? Especially in the NBA and MLB?
Dec 25, 2011 11:42pm
Classyposter58's avatar

Classyposter58

Senior Member

6,321 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:46 PM
Pick6;1027075 wrote:Its jordo. He thinks every athlete wants to play in a large market in nice weather and is a bandwagoner (just like him)
:laugh:I guess. I mean shoot Detroit itself might of gone to hell but all that old money from the factories and many famous people live in the northern burbs. Better than eastern Cuyahoga County
Dec 25, 2011 11:46pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:48 PM
jordo212000;1027081 wrote:Hasn't this been overwhelmingly been proven to be true? Especially in the NBA and MLB?
meh, i cant really comment on MLB. But I'd agree there is a recent trend for the super stars. However, this also contributes to the overall bad product of basketball that you are complaining about. Yet, you are saying you would be doing the same thing...hmm
Dec 25, 2011 11:48pm
Classyposter58's avatar

Classyposter58

Senior Member

6,321 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:49 PM
jordo212000;1027077 wrote:Living in the midwest has ruined me haha. I'd be going somewhere a little warmer. Plus, if I was one of those guys I would probably want to go to cities with better night life and hotter women. (LA, San Diego, Miami, etc.)
Ha but those places suck for everything except basketball
Dec 25, 2011 11:49pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

Senior Member

10,664 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:52 PM
Pick6;1027085 wrote:meh, i cant really comment on MLB. But I'd agree there is a recent trend for the super stars. However, this also contributes to the overall bad product of basketball that you are complaining about. Yet, you are saying you would be doing the same thing...hmm
No I was saying that I had a problem with Dwight Howard holding the team hostage and changing his mind every other day. Besides, he already plays in a warm market. Nice try though.

Also, ask like_that, I got a lot of heat for not having a problem with Lebron & co. taking their talents to South Beach. I don't like any of those guys and hope they never win, but I had no problem with what they did.

Reading comprehension is your friend!
Dec 25, 2011 11:52pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

Senior Member

10,664 posts
Dec 25, 2011 11:54 PM
Classyposter58;1027086 wrote:Ha but those places suck for everything except basketball
Dodgers have been solid, Angels have been solid (will probably contend with Pujols and CJ Wilson going out there), Padres went to the playoffs a couple years back and will suck for the foreseeable future, Miami (FLA Marlins) has won 2 World Series titles and seem primed for another big year.

I wasn't saying the list was exclusive to these teams / cities, just giving an example for where I would want to play.
Dec 25, 2011 11:54pm
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DeyDurkie5

Senior Member

11,324 posts
Dec 26, 2011 8:09 AM
Classyposter58;1027083 wrote::laugh:I guess. I mean shoot Detroit itself might of gone to hell but all that old money from the factories and many famous people live in the northern burbs. Better than eastern Cuyahoga County
detroit blows dude. one good year in football, and you are making it out to be a vacation destination. get the lion cum stains off your mouth
Dec 26, 2011 8:09am
like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Dec 26, 2011 8:10 AM
jordo212000;1027073 wrote:That was an awesome use of $50 million wasn't it? Other teams bid on Matsusaka. They were just the team who made the most ridiculous offer.
Yeah, it just shows what is wrong with the MLB. Not surprised you don't realize this.
jordo212000;1027077 wrote:Living in the midwest has ruined me haha. I'd be going somewhere a little warmer. Plus, if I was one of those guys I would probably want to go to cities with better night life and hotter women. (LA, San Diego, Miami, etc.)
Ok, I am with your there, but if you think there is a correlation between a multi millionare athlete and average white collar workers (or blue collar for some here), then you are only kidding yourself.
jordo212000;1027081 wrote:Hasn't this been overwhelmingly been proven to be true? Especially in the NBA and MLB?
In the NBA sure, in the MLB and NFL it's all about the money.
Dec 26, 2011 8:10am
Heretic's avatar

Heretic

Son of the Sun

18,820 posts
Dec 26, 2011 12:08 PM
Yeah, to me, MLB is about the money. If you look at teams like Pitt and Cleve and wonder why they're struggling to compete, the $50M payrolls have more to say about that than location or anything else. Which is a big difference from the $80-90 that STL had invested in their team this past season. Like an "star position play + upper-tier pitcher" difference. I'd guess top-tier guys might not take the low-caliber teams' offers seriously, mainly because those offers would be less than they'd get elsewhere AND the knowledge that even if the offer's competitive, the rest of the team might not be because they're putting all their eggs in one bucket.

NBA is most about the rock-star, "play in a trendy place" sort of thing right now. NFL seems the most "tradition-aligned" where teams that aren't in cultural meccas still can regularly compete AND collect great players. I mean, the current best team is located in a fucking small city in Wisconsin. And that team has been a pretty consistent contender over the past two decades with Favre and Rodgers eras. I doubt GB could survive financially in the "anything goes" spending situation of MLB and I doubt that good players would want to go there in the NBA, but their combination of tradition and winning (like, a "success begets success" thing) makes them appealing in the NFL.
Dec 26, 2011 12:08pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Dec 26, 2011 12:11 PM
Heretic;1027326 wrote:Yeah, to me, MLB is about the money. If you look at teams like Pitt and Cleve and wonder why they're struggling to compete, the $50M payrolls have more to say about that than location or anything else....
Isn't the $50M payroll a result of the location and the revenue that location will provide ala tv $$$$, attendance rev and ad $$$.
Dec 26, 2011 12:11pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 26, 2011 12:13 PM
Just imagine if the Indians were sold to Steinbrenner....
Dec 26, 2011 12:13pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 26, 2011 12:18 PM
darren rovell @darrenrovell
Tom Reed of the Plain Dealer (@PDCavsInsider) reporting Cavs season ticket renewal rates at just above 30%. Yikes.

darren rovell @darrenrovell
Cavaliers got to the abysmal 30% season renewal rate because they canceled out of state accounts owned by ticket brokers
Dec 26, 2011 12:18pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Dec 26, 2011 12:35 PM
Con_Alma;1027329 wrote:Isn't the $50M payroll a result of the location and the revenue that location will provide ala tv $$$$, attendance rev and ad $$$.
Yes it is. And it's wrong. Other pro sports are more interesting because of the more communist approach with revenue sharing.

Now don't go calling me a Marxist. It works for pro sports...not in the real world.
Dec 26, 2011 12:35pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Dec 26, 2011 12:40 PM
It was a leading question.

Location dictates revenue, which dictates the ability to put greater talent vs competitors in the game.
Dec 26, 2011 12:40pm