Whoa...Rbt. Gates Calls Israel An Ungrateful Ally

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majorspark's avatar

majorspark

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5,122 posts
Sep 15, 2011 11:31 AM
I Wear Pants;896831 wrote:Why does it have to be this extreme? There is a middle ground. Don't have to nuthug or completely want to get rid of Israel.
Well some have claimed that if the USA keeps to itself and Israel goes back to its pre 1967 borders the world will be a kind and gentle place. Hell Footwedge even claimed terrorism will virtually disappear. I was merely pointing out that there was a period in world history where these two nations did not exist and how peaceful the world was during that time. The muslims were happy and content building mosques on the ruins of the jewish temple and pretty much kept to themselves.
Sep 15, 2011 11:31am
jhay78's avatar

jhay78

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Sep 15, 2011 12:29 PM
majorspark;896563 wrote:True it has. It has always been considered an immoral and a barbaric practice to solely target civilians. I understand that civilians have some culpability in that they support the military machine. If a people feel they are shid on take the moral high ground and be brave enough to focus attacks on the military machine. They will be seen in a different light. Its understood at times civilians directly or indirectly supporting the military machine may become casualties as well. But only in actions targeting military objectives.

So not having a military and taking on a world empire justifies targeting civilians first and blowing them up. Is that what you are saying? I addressed this on another thread... We have been in a similar situation. The world empire of the day had troops stationed on our lands against our will. The British empire was the most powerful on earth at the time. We had no navy. No heavy weapons. Little military training. Did we pack commercial naval vessels hauling innocent civilians with gun powder and sail them into the port of London and detonate them? No. We sent the King a letter and told him to GTFO. When he sent his army to come get us large numbers of regular individuals grabbed their personal arms and took on what was at the time the most powerful and professional army of the time.

You appear to justify the cowardly tactics of hitting the weakest targets with no military presence or objective in the case that an oppressed people has no military. I am glad our founders thought otherwise and put their lives, family, and property at risk to take on what on paper would appear to be impossible and directly defied with the force of arms (what little they had) the greatest military power on earth at the time.

I don't need to google. I know the history. No nation is without sin including our own. The nation of Israel has since condemned that practice. The Palestinian Authority realizes if they have any hope for a state they must do likewise. The best thing to ever further that cause is Yasser Arafatat croaking.

Is that why in district 9 in NYC they elected a conservative republican who railed against Obamas policy toward Israel. The district of Anthony Wiener and Chuck Schumer? You failed though in answering my question as to the buzz word that describes Israels enemies drive to possess their land and drive them into the sea. Intifada? Jihad? What makes the Indifadists or Jihadists any more noble than the Zionists. Why not rail on them like you do the Zionist? They are all after the same thing.

I never once played the "anti-Semite" card in reference to any posters criticism of the state of Israel. Nor do I recall others doing it. You say everytime so go ahead and list them. I'll wait. My comment was not to you or your criticism of Israel but the UN. A body thats members consist of a lot of ruthless dictators that oppress their own people by killing and imprisoning them without a jury of their peers. Yet Israel leads the pack in human rights violations. I smell a rat.

You yourself said that they were not the biggest human rights violators on the planet. Just the ones with the most UN violations. I wonder why????
Thank you for that response. Pretending that the UN is anything close to an objective authority when it comes to human rights violations is pretty silly.
Sep 15, 2011 12:29pm
dwccrew's avatar

dwccrew

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7,817 posts
Sep 19, 2011 8:16 AM
Cleveland Buck;893117 wrote:What makes more sense, they hate us for being free or they hate us for hand picking and propping up their brutal dictators and occupying their lands?

Obviously that they hate us for our freedom. They love the dictators we prop up and support.
Sep 19, 2011 8:16am
F

Footwedge

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9,265 posts
Sep 20, 2011 1:07 AM
Majorspark rails on those that strap on bombs and kill 30 at a bus stop. But when the state of Israel murder a couple hundred Qanans at a clip. it's OK. After all, they used the big bombs and not the strap ons.

we had Qana in 1996 and Qana part 2 a few years ago. Yet, Americans are never told about the mass civilian murder of the citizens of Lebanon....a town most famous for Jesus' miracle of turning water into wine.

Yeah...those Zionists....completely devoid of terrorism, eh?

http://this-is-war.blogspot.com/2006/07/remembering-massacre-at-qana-1996.html

Warning...graphic pic of Israel's bombing campaign on innocent citizens...including a photo of a citizen carrying a child who had his/her head shrapnelled off at the neck.
Sep 20, 2011 1:07am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

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7,566 posts
Sep 20, 2011 1:31 AM
^^

Did the child carry a bomb?

We get it. You hate Israel, and seemingly ignore that the Palestinians are possibly the most unsympathetic victims in the world...why don't you post on the Rachel Corrie hatesite? Here is a suggestion for the Palestinians, stop being stupid.
Sep 20, 2011 1:31am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

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7,566 posts
Sep 20, 2011 1:36 AM
Also, here is my favorite story channeling Michael Scott from The Office re his love for Sbarro:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing

When they stop acting like animals, the international community can treat them as such.
Sep 20, 2011 1:36am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

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7,566 posts
Sep 20, 2011 1:44 AM
" They don't have a military to fight their battles. So they blow people up."

They blow innocent children up. I prefer a regime that actually targets the oppressors (even if I disagree with it) - other than acting like cowards.
Sep 20, 2011 1:44am
F

Footwedge

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9,265 posts
Sep 21, 2011 6:02 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;904002 wrote:" They don't have a military to fight their battles. So they blow people up."

They blow innocent children up. I prefer a regime that actually targets the oppressors (even if I disagree with it) - other than acting like cowards.
But it's not cowardly at all to drop "big bombs" on Qana...in a 100% non military zone, wiping out a few hundred women and kids, is it? Ummm, gotcha. You're just like Major...you don't get it...and you never, ever will.
Sep 21, 2011 6:02pm
F

Footwedge

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9,265 posts
Sep 21, 2011 6:06 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;903998 wrote:^^

Did the child carry a bomb?

We get it. You hate Israel, and seemingly ignore that the Palestinians are possibly the most unsympathetic victims in the world...why don't you post on the Rachel Corrie hatesite? Here is a suggestion for the Palestinians, stop being stupid.
Oh I get it. You hate the Palestinians, and seemingly ignore that the Zionists are possibly the most unsympathetic victims in the world...why don't you post on a Zionist hatesite. Here's a suggestion for the Zionists...quit being stupid....and....quit killing innocent people in places like Qana...where Jesus performed miracles.
Sep 21, 2011 6:06pm
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

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Sep 21, 2011 6:38 PM
Footwedge;905944 wrote:But it's not cowardly at all to drop "big bombs" on Qana...in a 100% non military zone, wiping out a few hundred women and kids, is it? Ummm, gotcha. You're just like Major...you don't get it...and you never, ever will.
100% percent "non-military" zone. That is where these brave people love to hide and launch their rockets they fire at Israeli population centers.
Sep 21, 2011 6:38pm
I

I Wear Pants

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Sep 22, 2011 11:26 AM
So because insurgents hide among the population we should kill the population? That seems brilliantly just.
Sep 22, 2011 11:26am
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

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Sep 22, 2011 12:41 PM
I Wear Pants;906665 wrote:So because insurgents hide among the population we should kill the population? That seems brilliantly just.
I did not say that. We did that in WWII. We just carpet bombed the whole city. If insurgents are going to hide and fight amongst the population then they endanger the population and make it a military zone.
Sep 22, 2011 12:41pm
I

I Wear Pants

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Sep 23, 2011 12:32 AM
majorspark;906748 wrote:I did not say that. We did that in WWII. We just carpet bombed the whole city. If insurgents are going to hide and fight amongst the population then they endanger the population and make it a military zone.
So would you agree that bombing the population simply because insurgents hide among them is unjust?
Sep 23, 2011 12:32am
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

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Sep 23, 2011 4:16 AM
I Wear Pants;907575 wrote:So would you agree that bombing the population simply because insurgents hide among them is unjust?
It depends on the on the circumstances. Israel and the USA are unique in history. With the military power they possess over their enemies yet have restrained its full power. A rare occurrence in world history. I am not saying neither of these powers have never used their power at times unjustly. But power and restraint are very rare in world history.
Sep 23, 2011 4:16am
Websurfinbird's avatar

Websurfinbird

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Sep 23, 2011 3:59 PM
Full disclosure I am Jewish, so naturally I do have an affinity for Israel. However I am not Israeli, nor do I have any family there, so I don't just blindly support everything they do or do not do. I too used to be like many people in this country and wonder what is the big deal about Israel, and why is so much time and effort spent protecting that country? I finally understood when I got there. No matter what you believe there really is something in the air there and you suddenly get why it means so much to so many people.

As for the current situation at hand. I believe both Israelis and Palestinians have done wrong, and I believe broad stroke criticism for each can be anti-Jewish or anti-Muslim. Reading the comments on various news sites it's pretty disgusting. Those against the Palestinian cause use really nasty anti-Muslim rhetoric, and those against Israel spew atrocious anti-semitism.

I for one am not sure whether a Palestinian state will really bring peace to the region, but I think its worth giving it a shot. I am just not convinced that Abbas or Netanyahu have the best approach. I just hope they can figure it out.
Sep 23, 2011 3:59pm
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

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Sep 23, 2011 5:18 PM
Websurfinbird;908151 wrote:I for one am not sure whether a Palestinian state will really bring peace to the region
Its not the Palestinians want it all. So do a lot of Jews. A Palestinian state is just a mere stepping stone toward running the Jews into the sea. Check out the logo on Palestinian Permanent Observer Mission to the UN. It represents a one state solution.



http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/
Sep 23, 2011 5:18pm
jhay78's avatar

jhay78

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Sep 24, 2011 12:37 PM
The Palestinians want the non-existence of a Jewish state more than they want the formation of a Palestinian state. They have been offered various two-state solutions in history (both by the British and the UN), and they have refused every time. Of course, now that the UN is corrupt as ever, they're trying to backdoor the statehood thingy without negotiating with people that matter.
Sep 24, 2011 12:37pm
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queencitybuckeye

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Sep 24, 2011 8:21 PM
I Wear Pants;906665 wrote:So because insurgents hide among the population we should kill the population? That seems brilliantly just.
If you're a criminal and grab and hold an innocent as a shield, should said innocent get killed, you are the party at fault, not the shooter.
Sep 24, 2011 8:21pm
I

I Wear Pants

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Sep 25, 2011 4:09 PM
queencitybuckeye;909596 wrote:If you're a criminal and grab and hold an innocent as a shield, should said innocent get killed, you are the party at fault, not the shooter.
If a criminal hides in a Starbucks the police would be wrong to shoot everyone in the Starbucks.

Noting wrongdoing on the part of the police in this example doesn't excuse the actions of the criminal. Much like saying that Israel shouldn't bomb civilians doesn't excuse the cowardly deeds of the insurgents.
Sep 25, 2011 4:09pm
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

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Sep 25, 2011 5:05 PM
You can't compare military action with civilian criminal action. They are operate under different rules.
Sep 25, 2011 5:05pm
I

I Wear Pants

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Sep 25, 2011 8:57 PM
majorspark;910486 wrote:You can't compare military action with civilian criminal action. They are operate under different rules.
I didn't start the comparison but was just using that to show that his example could be used to prove my point just as easily as his. IE: It's a bad example.
Sep 25, 2011 8:57pm