gut;788454 wrote:I don't disagree with that, but is this debate just about marijuana or all drugs? The violent crime people are using as an argument for legalization is not really related to marijuana, no?
If you venture down to a state sharing a border with Mexico (such as the one I was born in - California), you come to realize that there is a LOT of violent crime surrounding marijuana.
gut;788460 wrote:Again, I don't disagree. But when addiction starts infringing on the rights of others, then society has the right to take steps to protect their interests.
I agree. Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose. However, I don't think that the "fist swinging" should be illegal.
One's rights ought not be permitted to infringe on another's. However, drug "use" (not referring to addiction here), in and of itself, infringes on the rights of nobody. It is the actions that are either committed or neglected that infringe on the rights of others.
Hence, it's the action that should be (and in most cases already is) illegal. If I smoke, shoot up, snort, or swallow a drug currently deemed illegal, but I do so in my own home, by myself, I have infringed on the rights of nobody. If I jump in my car and go for a drive, and I T-bone a vehicle, then I have. The infringement on someone else's rights, in this case, is not the result of drug use, but the operating of a vehicle while under the influence. Thus, the latter is what should be (and is) illegal, and not the former.
gut;788460 wrote:And I suspect anyone who's had a family member struggle with addiction would strongly disagree with you. I'm not even sure whether someone should be able to kill themself through addiction or other means is a question of liberty
I've had a relative and a few close friends who have either died, or have been hospitalized, because of drug or alcohol abuse. I currently have an uncle who is running from police because of actions he committed while high. Moreover, I live and volunteer in an area where drug use is incredibly prevalent (a shed used as a meth lab on the property behind my home blew up about a year ago, for example). I have seen the effects, and I know the dangers. It's why even if they were legal, I would never use them.
However, my own anecdotes and emotions should not play into my belief on what should be permitted.
gut;788460 wrote:As for use rising with legalization, I guarantee it, and there's no reason to think it won't be multiples of current use.
I would disagree. Given the prevalence of drug use currently, and the ineffectiveness of the attempted enforcement of laws prohibiting use, it would seem that the only people who don't currently use, but who would if drugs were made legal, would be the people whose sole reason for not using is the legality of it. I sincerely doubt that would be such a large percentage of people.
In this respect, I would probably compare it to speeding. There are a LOT of people who drive dangerously above the speed limit, because the odds of being nailed for speeding are small. There are others who would never do so, because it increases the danger of driving. Still, there are others whose only reason for not going above the speed limit would be the legality of it. These people would likely speed if the speed limit were done away, but I daresay this percentage of drivers is likely very small.
gut;788460 wrote:Again, look at how many more users there are of tobacco and alcohol. You also mention marijuana has gained mainstream social acceptance. I don't think you're fully grasping the impact on both the stigma and ease of purchasing through increased availability will do to usage.
"How many more" users would be difficult to quantify in today's time, because we don't have a modern comparison. Additionally, we've gone through ages where such things were social statuses, which likely contributed to usage FAR MORE than merely the legalization.
Moreover, those eras which saw smoking and drinking as social statuses took place during a time when the dangers of such activities were hardly known. We don't have that issue today with drugs. IF that was the case, I would agree with you that usage would likely spike far more, but it's NOT the case.
gut;788460 wrote:You're also ignoring the fact that many drugs don't come with the same dehibilitating effects as tobacco and alcohol (hangovers), meaning you're likely to see a lot of people trial and switch to other drugs - I can't speak from experience but I don't think one needs to "recover" from a cocaine or painkiller high. Alongside alcohol, many of these drugs are going to be more attractive.
However, again, we also have knowledge of the dangers of such use. You may not have a hangover from cocaine, but we have been educated on the long-term effects of regular use of cocaine.
gut;788495 wrote:It's not a justification to invite more problems by making more harmful substances available.
My contention is that a substance shouldn't need a justification for being legalized. Rather, a substance should need a justification (one that is in line with concept of individual rights) in order to be ILLEGAL. As such, I see no reason to make drug use, in and of itself, illegal, as use of drugs ... any drugs really ... does not necessarily perpetuate an infringement on the rights of anyone else.
gut;788495 wrote:And where are all the dead bodies and social ills from caffeine? I mean, seriously?
The example of caffeine is that it is a social ill, not that it is a common killer of its users (though it has killed its users on occasion).
People become addicted very easily. It has pretty nasty withdrawal symptoms if you're addicted to it (I've recently had to quit coffee because of an allergy, and I was drinking a pot a day). Naturally, it does present a beneficial side effect similar to many illegal drugs (it's an "upper"). One of its most common consumptions is considered the leading cause of vehicular accidents of anything being ingested (coffee).
Caffeine intoxication has been known to cause the shakes, nervousness, a false sense of euphoria, insomnia, GI problems, irritability, and irregular or rapid heart rate.
You can actually overdose on it, which can indeed cause death, and has on occasion (more through the ingestion of caffeine pills, but also in occasional cases of excessive consumption of drinks high in caffeine).
To me, those things do make it sound very much like a drug, and CERTAINLY a social ill.
gut;788495 wrote:You legaliize just marijuana, and nothing substantial is going to change. You legalize everything, and you're making a trade-off inviting a whole host of other issues and praying there's a net benefit.
The "net benefits" are not even the crux of the argument to me. The primary reason I think it should be legalized is that it can be used without infringing on the rights of others. As such, it is not what should be illegal.
OLITICS
