Yes. National League ball with the pitchers hitting is 9/10 boring as hell.

enigmaax;776172 wrote:Pitchers should man the fuck up and carry their weight with the stick. But since that is obviously never gonna happen (christ, starting pitching has been pussified so much in the last couple decades that we need "middle relievers", before the real relievers???), might as well sit their candy asses down and make the AB a little entertaining. I would like to see a rule created that forces the DH to hit in the 9 spot, where the pitcher would otherwise be.

I understand what you're saying, but you also have to realise the amount of money the teams invest in these guys. Think the Yankees want to see CC Sabathia go down running the bases? This could be expanded into innings count arguement as well, as the last pitcher to throw over 300 innings was Steve Carlton in 1980. I think it boils down to investment.

For those against it, saying that Pitchers need to hit, is the reverse also true? You want to see Grady Sizemore up there on the mound?

that being said, DH is dumb.

Commander of Awesome;777333 wrote:I understand what you're saying, but you also have to realise the amount of money the teams invest in these guys. Think the Yankees want to see CC Sabathia go down running the bases? This could be expanded into innings count arguement as well, as the last pitcher to throw over 300 innings was Steve Carlton in 1980. I think it boils down to investment.

For those against it, saying that Pitchers need to hit, is the reverse also true? You want to see Grady Sizemore up there on the mound?

I understand the investment, but the risk is no different for a pitcher than it is for any other player except for the fact that the AL has allowed pitchers to be prima donnas and only play part of the game. How many NL pitchers get hurt running bases? It might happen sometime, but I'd guess there've been just as many freak injuries by players at home tripping over dogs and such as there have been pitchers who went down running a base. That is a weak argument.

Your reverse argument doesn't work either. "Pitcher" is a position just like any other. I wouldn't want to see Grady Sizemore pitch any more or less than I'd like to see him play catcher. I never wanted to see Frank Thomas play center field either. That is no different than not wanting to see Drew Brees play center. Batting isn't a position, it is the offense and in baseball players play both. Except for in the American League, where if you happen to only be good at one you can just sit the other out. That might work for old timers softball, but its kind of silly for professional baseball (especially considering the NL does just fine with their pitchers fully contributing).

As for the innings, again, yes I get the investment and the attempt to preserve a pitcher's health. But top guys pitched complete games for a hundred years. Thats fine, take care of their arms or whatever. Still makes them wusses historically.

As a former pitcher, yes. When you're on the mound all you want to think about is pitching, between innings I'd rather sit on the bench and relax. Playing in the outfield or something, you get a shot of adrenaline every so often when a ball comes your way. As a pitcher, you have it the whole time, so you get to the plate and you can't relax. It doesn't feel comfortable. When I was pitching I always hated hitting and that's the only time I hated it. Now when you start talking about pro's, the DH is definitely awesome. On that level the pitcher gets paid to pitch, they don't even bother to take many hacks in a cage. What is the point in them hitting? Most of them don't even care, so you have a man in both lineups that just wants to get out in most cases. And like I said about strategy, the most basic strategy in baseball is scoring runs. There are many strategical ways to do that, but basically, without hitting it's impossible. The strategy that some of you talk about, like pinch hitting in big spots and all that BS, that's not strategy. It's common sense because of what I talked about earlier--if the pitcher is getting to the end of his rope on the mound, who in their right mind would send him to the plate? Especially when you need a run. But you have to implement a shitty strategy at that point and bring a guy up off the bench who is cold, has been sitting there all game and just isn't that into it. Rather than a guy who is a regular in the batting order. I hate the NL game. Let pitchers pitch and nothing else, that's what they're there for. They have to work on that craft to a point where they can't work on hitting anyways, what the hell is the point?

And to whomever said I was the only one who liked the DH in the other thread, eat my ass.

enigmaax;777367 wrote: "Pitcher" is a position just like any other.

No, it isn't.

Every play starts with you. It's MUCH different than playing behind the pitcher.

Absolutely DH! Ask this question after you watch the AL teams play in the NL parks. Do a comparison on AL #9 hitters and NL pitchers batting 9th. How many pitchers are above the Mendoza line? Might as well have the QB do the punting and place kicking if you want to see pitchers bat.

And what is the strategy in the double switch? It really doesn't take much managerial thinking when the announcers call it before it happens. The stupidest managerial moves are lettiing pitchers go 5 or 6 innings then suddenly you need to go righty/lefty on us. Someone needs to do research and see the batting averages of that 1st hitter after a pitching change.

riders1;777394 wrote:Absolutely DH! Ask this question after you watch the AL teams play in the NL parks. Do a comparison on AL #9 hitters and NL pitchers batting 9th. How many pitchers are above the Mendoza line? Might as well have the QB do the punting and place kicking if you want to see pitchers bat.

George Blanda says hey.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?player_id=29

GOONx19;777411 wrote:George Blanda says hey.

95+% of the NFL QB's who have ever lived say hey. Punters and place kickers are snickering in the corner.

The Boss;777380 wrote:No, it isn't.

Every play starts with you. It's MUCH different than playing behind the pitcher.

You can say that it is more difficult, requires a different skill set, and a lot of other things. Bottom line, it is just a position. Quarterback is much different than playing guard, but they're both just positions.

The fact that pitchers don't care to hit or don't take the swings to be an effective hitter, those are choices they make - it isn't that they can't - and are at least partly influenced by what the game allows. If you're willing to give a pitcher a pass, why would he care or practice?

Obviously the game isn't going to change and like I said, because of the culture of the game, I'd rather see a DH. But that doesn't mean it ever should have been an issue to begin with.

riders1;777394 wrote: Might as well have the QB do the punting and place kicking if you want to see pitchers bat.

The Boss;777412 wrote:95+% of the NFL QB's who have ever lived say hey. Punters and place kickers are snickering in the corner.

Well, kicking and punting weren't specialized positions until sometime in the 60s. The rule change that allowed kicking to be specialized wasn't even intended for that, but obviously allowed room for it. And think about what that has become - now teams need a "kickoff specialist" in addition to the other two kicking positions? Really?

Same principle. Since the game allows for it (and we've been conditioned to expect it), might as well see the guys who are best at it. But, it didn't ever have to be that way and the game would've been different but just fine without those specialists.

enigmaax;777430 wrote:You can say that it is more difficult, requires a different skill set, and a lot of other things. Bottom line, it is just a position. Quarterback is much different than playing guard, but they're both just positions.

The fact that pitchers don't care to hit or don't take the swings to be an effective hitter, those are choices they make - it isn't that they can't - and are at least partly influenced by what the game allows. If you're willing to give a pitcher a pass, why would he care or practice?

Obviously the game isn't going to change and like I said, because of the culture of the game, I'd rather see a DH. But that doesn't mean it ever should have been an issue to begin with.

Because he makes mutil-millions a year because of his arm, not his bat. Why would he work on his bat? Pretty simple concept.

If you're a computer programmer and Microsoft/Google/Facebook offers you a million a year to work for them, are you going to decline that and go back to school to get an MBA so you can "play a different position"?

The Boss;777444 wrote:Because he makes mutil-millions a year because of his arm, not his bat. Why would he work on his bat? Pretty simple concept.

I didn't disagree with the fact that the team/league allow this to happen. Still doesn't make it great. It isn't like pitchers never learned how to hit - I would guess a lot of them were actually pretty good hitters at one point. They just stop when they get to a certain level because they're allowed. Not blaming them, but I would prefer that it weren't the case.

I'm telling you, as a former pitcher, that hitting sucks when you're pitching. I told you why. And I was no where near a pro, where my arm had to be great and I was batting against other great arms. It's just stupid. The QB reference was dead on, there is a reason they don't do it anymore. Because it's stupid and inefficient.

The Boss;777682 wrote:I'm telling you, as a former pitcher, that hitting sucks when you're pitching.

Lots of different aspects of your job suck, doesn't mean they are going to get rid of them.

Lots of running backs hate to pass block, doesn't mean they are going to make it mandatory that a RB cannot block.

The Boss;777682 wrote:I'm telling you, as a former pitcher, that hitting sucks when you're pitching. I told you why. And I was no where near a pro, where my arm had to be great and I was batting against other great arms. It's just stupid. The QB reference was dead on, there is a reason they don't do it anymore. Because it's stupid and inefficient.

I'll tell you, as a former pitcher, that only playing half of the game really sucks. Does taking a few swings and running the bases really sap your energy to the point where it takes away from your pitching? If so, run a few more poles or something.

The Boss;777682 wrote:I'm telling you, as a former pitcher, that hitting sucks when you're pitching. I told you why. And I was no where near a pro, where my arm had to be great and I was batting against other great arms. It's just stupid. The QB reference was dead on, there is a reason they don't do it anymore. Because it's stupid and inefficient.

Yeah again, that is a pussy prima donna attitude. I don't feel like hitting. I just want to relax. It isn't like you're going all out every single play as a regular in the batting order. You're in the game, so you should have a couple at-bats like everyone else who is in the game.

A catcher would probably like to rest his legs between innings. He doesn't whine and get a DH. For that matter, a DH doesn't have to play the field. It's great for the fat tard that doesn't feel like playing defense (or who sucks at it) to be able to get a check while playing for about 10 seconds. More power to both sides for being treated like queens. Doesn't mean they aren't pussies in the grand scheme of sports and competition.

As for efficiency, where's the efficiency? The more specialization, the more roster spots that are taken up by half ass contributors. Pitchers already have managed to make more and more millions of dollars while pitching less and less. What is a pitcher going these days? About six innings once a week? That isn't a huge impact for all that money, plus you have to pay another player to be a half ass contributor.

Nyet.

You obviously missed the point/didn't really read what I said.

enigmaax;777734 wrote:Yeah again, that is a pussy prima donna attitude. I don't feel like hitting. I just want to relax. It isn't like you're going all out every single play as a regular in the batting order. You're in the game, so you should have a couple at-bats like everyone else who is in the game.

A catcher would probably like to rest his legs between innings. He doesn't whine and get a DH. For that matter, a DH doesn't have to play the field. It's great for the fat tard that doesn't feel like playing defense (or who sucks at it) to be able to get a check while playing for about 10 seconds. More power to both sides for being treated like queens. Doesn't mean they aren't pussies in the grand scheme of sports and competition.

As for efficiency, where's the efficiency? The more specialization, the more roster spots that are taken up by half ass contributors. Pitchers already have managed to make more and more millions of dollars while pitching less and less. What is a pitcher going these days? About six innings once a week? That isn't a huge impact for all that money, plus you have to pay another player to be a half ass contributor.

yeah...great post .
Now if we could just get rid of pussy placekickers and punters in football and make the offense play both ways....

HitsRus;779658 wrote:Now if we could just get rid of pussy placekickers and punters in football and make the offense play both ways....

Yes. No need for specialized kickers of any sort in football. Players played both ways for 40 years of professional football - those guys were tougher. I understand why they don't do it any more and those reasons are much better than the reasons for a pitcher not to bat. Still, the old guys were tougher.

those reasons are much better than the reasons for a pitcher not to bat.

Nah, I don't think so.Most sports have free substitution rules where a player can be put back into a game which is not the case in baseball. While one might not agree with the original idea to put the DH into the game, the way the game has evolved demands it. Nobody...especially an owner, wants to pay a pitcher $10 million and have him turn an ankle running the bases. I don't want that as a fan either...moreover, I'm not buying a ticket to see Cliff Lee hit and run the bases.

Yes for DH. It should be added to the NL as well. A pitcher is only going to bat every 5 days and we all know that if you bat every 5 days your not going to be good. I think it ruins the game that one spot in the lineup is usually always an out.

JerseyBuck;775283 wrote:From an American League guy, no.

This.

HitsRus;781892 wrote:Nah, I don't think so.Most sports have free substitution rules where a player can be put back into a game which is not the case in baseball. While one might not agree with the original idea to put the DH into the game, the way the game has evolved demands it. Nobody...especially an owner, wants to pay a pitcher $10 million and have him turn an ankle running the bases. I don't want that as a fan either...moreover, I'm not buying a ticket to see Cliff Lee hit and run the bases.

Free substitution was a rule change for football after decades without it. That particular rules change had a lot to do with safety and there's a significant difference in risk between guys battering each other for 60 consecutive minutes and turning an ankle running bases for a couple minutes every few days. The DH rule is designed to hide a poor performer. I personally don't find that to be a better reason than safety, which is what I meant in the line you quoted.

HitsRus;781892 wrote:Nah, I don't think so.Most sports have free substitution rules where a player can be put back into a game which is not the case in baseball. While one might not agree with the original idea to put the DH into the game, the way the game has evolved demands it. Nobody...especially an owner, wants to pay a pitcher $10 million and have him turn an ankle running the bases. I don't want that as a fan either...moreover, I'm not buying a ticket to see Cliff Lee hit and run the bases.

Cliff Lee just hit a 2 run double.