Just curious. I have been reading a little bit on Objectivisn and Ayn Rand. Rand is considered one the most important philosophers in promoting Libertarianism. So I ask...can an atheist go to heaven?

If you're a Christian who believes in the authority of the Bible, I don't think much of an argument can be made that someone who intentionally rejects Christ can go to heaven.

If you're not a Christian, or if you're a Christian who doesn't believe in the authority of the Bible, then I think things are wide open.

FFT if you are going to respond to a thread at least approve the dang thing first

LJ;743994 wrote:FFT if you are going to respond to a thread at least approve the dang thing first

Heh, whoops. I didn't even realize it wasn't approved when I responded.

Absolutely.

I'm currently persuaded to think that the answer is no.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but at this time, I can't believe it.

Why would they want to?

of course not.

There is no correct answer to this.

If you believe in God and think he's good and all that jazz and at the same time think he'll damn people to hell simply because they don't believe the writings of a thousands year old book that's been distorted by man for hundreds of years and the meaning hijacked for other's personal gain then I don't know what to tell you.

I cannot imagine a benevolent God that would do such a thing.

OSH;744012 wrote:Why would they want to?

Not believing in God doesn't mean that you don't think heaven sounds like a good deal.

fan_from_texas;743707 wrote:If you're a Christian who believes in the authority of the Bible, I don't think much of an argument can be made that someone who intentionally rejects Christ can go to heaven.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

Enter now the heretics, thread bombers, and unbelievers.

I Wear Pants;744027 wrote:If you believe in God and think he's good and all that jazz and at the same time think he'll damn people to hell simply because they don't believe the writings of a thousands year old book that's been distorted by man for hundreds of years and the meaning hijacked for other's personal gain then I don't know what to tell you.

The idea that God is "damning" people assumes that they are currently neutral as a default, and that God actively picks some to go one way and some to go another. IF that were the case, I'd actually agree with you completely, and this was a point of contention for me for many years.

However, if one considers the damnation as simply the default for anyone in humanity, and that God has simply provided a way out of that ultimate fate which is accessible by anyone, it takes on a different perspective.

That's the origin of calling God (or more technically "Jesus," given the crucifixion playing a role in this salvific action) "Savior." In a literal sense, it is the idea that he is saving many from their default fate, which they cannot do themselves.

Now, whether or not one believes this is a whole different, and usually very long, discussion. But that's the idea behind people who do go to hell/Hades/Sheol/etc. It's the idea that such a place is the default of mankind, and is such because of man's volitional actions. The idea of heaven is that God can rescue any human from that fate if said human being is willing to be rescued.

This is going to be a long thread. I can tell already.

I understand that. It's just that God created everything if you go off the Bible's account of things. Assuming that he set that system up and as such he is damning everyone. Plus I don't like the idea that God is some petty little kid that doesn't like if people can't/don't want to believe in him. That sort of God I don't think I really care to have anything to do with.

I Wear Pants;744029 wrote:Not believing in God doesn't mean that you don't think heaven sounds like a good deal.

Why would someone want to go to a place where God would be present? It sounds like a good deal if and only if God isn't there? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I Wear Pants;744046 wrote:I understand that. It's just that God created everything if you go off the Bible's account of things. Assuming that he set that system up and as such he is damning everyone. Plus I don't like the idea that God is some petty little kid that doesn't like if people can't/don't want to believe in him. That sort of God I don't think I really care to have anything to do with.

Why would God want you to be with Him if you choose not to be with Him? I don't feel it's a "petty little kid" thing.

I look at it as more of, God isn't making the decision, the individual is making the decision on where he/she wants to end up...

believer;744035 wrote:Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

Enter now the heretics, thread bombers, and unbelievers.

There's a poster named Unbeliever on this site to go with Thread Bomber and I?

OSH;744067 wrote:Why would someone want to go to a place where God would be present? It sounds like a good deal if and only if God isn't there? Doesn't make much sense to me.



Why would God want you to be with Him if you choose not to be with Him? I don't feel it's a "petty little kid" thing.

I look at it as more of, God isn't making the decision, the individual is making the decision on where he/she wants to end up...

You don't know what an atheist is do you?

Being an atheist doesn't mean you don't like God or reject him or something. It just means you don't believe in a God, that you find other explanations for things more likely. It's quite possible to be an atheist (believe there isn't an omnipresent deity) and wish that God and heaven did exist.

It is a petty little kid thing if someone lives a good and moral life because they are a good and moral person but find themselves unpersuaded/unconvinced by the Bible/churches/etc. At least it is to me, because that person was a good person because they felt it was the proper way to act and not as some way to stave off damnation or buy their way into heaven.

I'm going out on a limb here and saying a bible belt Christian's heaven IS NOT heaven for some atheist liberals. Yes! You can have all the sex in heaven you want! No, sorry, no gay sex.

I Wear Pants;744027 wrote:If you believe in God and think he's good and all that jazz and at the same time think he'll damn people to hell simply because they don't believe the writings of a thousands year old book that's been distorted by man for hundreds of years and the meaning hijacked for other's personal gain then I don't know what to tell you.

I cannot imagine a benevolent God that would do such a thing.

The Bible is pretty clear on this. Like I said, if you're a Christian who believes in the authority of the Bible, then I don't think you can really argue that an atheist goes to heaven. Someone who calls himself a Christian but doesn't believe in the authority of the Bible can believe whatever he wants.

I find it ironic that so many Christians claim that Christianity & their God is the foundation of morality, but admits that it doesn't matter if you're the most righteous, good person in the world, that if you don't believe in their God, you're going to hell! They'll even admit that a serial killer on death row that has done nothing but, killed, raped, and stolen his entire life has a better chance of getting in to their heaven than a Buddhist Monk, as long as the killer asks for forgiveness and "accepts" Jesus!

If such a being and place exists, I'd rather burn in hell for eternity!



Oh, yeah, WTF is up with this thread staying in politics? I create a similar thread and attempted to post it in the Politics forum and I don't even get a message telling me it should be placed in Serious Business forum; it was simply deleted, or not posted! I had to send a message to ask about my thread before I found out it wasn't worthy enough for the politics forum! How about a little consistency!

/rant

All atheists go to Cleveland and are forced to purchase Browns season tickets for all eternity.

fish82;744097 wrote:All atheists go to Cleveland and are forced to purchase Browns season tickets for all eternity.

I could live (die?) with that!

Bigred1995;744095 wrote:I find it ironic that so many Christians claim that Christianity & their God is the foundation of morality, but admits that it doesn't matter if you're the most righteous, good person in the world, that if you don't believe in their God, you're going to hell! They'll even admit that a serial killer on death row that has done nothing but, killed, raped, and stolen his entire life has a better chance of getting in to their heaven than a Buddhist Monk, as long as the killer asks for forgiveness and "accepts" Jesus!

I think you misunderstand how Christianity works. It isn't based on being good--it's based on grace. The number of good works someone does or the number of bad works they do doesn't factor into the equation. You can disagree with that and think it's silly, but I'm not sure why you should get mad if people who believe the tenets of a particular religion support, you know, the religion they believe.

I Wear Pants;744046 wrote:I understand that. It's just that God created everything if you go off the Bible's account of things. Assuming that he set that system up and as such he is damning everyone. Plus I don't like the idea that God is some petty little kid that doesn't like if people can't/don't want to believe in him. That sort of God I don't think I really care to have anything to do with.

The idea is that he DIDN'T set up the system as it exists in its current state. He created it to be a sort of Utopia (as far as I understand it anyway), but to allow man to choose his fate in a sense, thus allowing man the choice to have relationship with him or not to. Once man chose not to, it altered the existence of that Utopia. Imperfection was no longer prevented from influencing the world. A sort of "Pandora's Box" effect, I suppose.

In doing so, man altered a perfect world such that it wasn't any longer perfect, which perpetuated the state of being I mentioned before, where humankind requires a "rescuer."

Think of it in these terms: A man built you an immaculate palace to live in. You set it on fire, that man came in to said burning palace to rescue you out of it, but he can't rescue you if we are looked in a room, and you either don't know you need rescued or you refuse to let him rescue you.

It's kind of that idea. Anyone is able to be rescued, regardless of any characteristic of their life to this point. However, one can, if one wishes or doesn't know any better, refuse to be rescued.

Some might then contend that God should essentially club us over the head and rescue us even in spite of ourselves ... then again, if someone who was a Christian came up to you and spoke to you in those same terms (very much trying to "shove it down your throat"), how would that sit?

I DO think that God has shown, in the Bible, that he tends to hold people to what they can know of him, and not more, so I don't know for sure where I land on this subject. I hope that, at worst, annihilationists have it right. I don't currently subscribe to that view, though.

fish82;744097 wrote:All atheists go to Cleveland and are forced to purchase Browns season tickets for all eternity.

Is the Dawg Pound purgatory then?