I Wear Pants;744074 wrote:You don't know what an atheist is do you?

Being an atheist doesn't mean you don't like God or reject him or something. It just means you don't believe in a God, that you find other explanations for things more likely. It's quite possible to be an atheist (believe there isn't an omnipresent deity) and wish that God and heaven did exist.

It is a petty little kid thing if someone lives a good and moral life because they are a good and moral person but find themselves unpersuaded/unconvinced by the Bible/churches/etc. At least it is to me, because that person was a good person because they felt it was the proper way to act and not as some way to stave off damnation or buy their way into heaven.

If heaven, in the Christian sense, is a place where God is...why would an atheist want to go spend an eternity with God when they didn't want to spend a few years with them when they were on earth? To me, if a person rejects God on earth, why wouldn't they just reject God if given the opportunity to go into heaven? It doesn't make any sense to me for an atheist to deny God, but would spend the afterlife with Him in heaven...make sense of that for me, please?

I hope that Christians aren't just believing in God/Jesus so they can "stave off damnation or buy their way into heaven." I find it hard to believe that would be an acceptable means of obtaining an eternity in heaven -- it may be, but there's much more to a Christian life than that.

OSH;744111 wrote:If heaven, in the Christian sense, is a place where God is...why would an atheist want to go spend an eternity with God when they didn't want to spend a few years with them when they were on earth? To me, if a person rejects God on earth, why wouldn't they just reject God if given the opportunity to go into heaven? It doesn't make any sense to me for an atheist to deny God, but would spend the afterlife with Him in heaven...make sense of that for me, please?

The words I highlighted are words of volition. They are choices. Atheists, by definition, do not reject God/god/Vishnu/etc. by choice. They are simply convinced he isn't real. If they came to realize he was, that changes things.

OSH;744111 wrote:I hope that Christians aren't just believing in God/Jesus so they can "stave off damnation or buy their way into heaven." I find it hard to believe that would be an acceptable means of obtaining an eternity in heaven -- it may be, but there's much more to a Christian life than that.

I agree. If anything, I don't like think it's possible to believe something based on reward anyway. If I told you I'd give you $100 to believe I have a full-sized, purple elephant alive and well, living in my back pocket, you might want to believe me. You might "try" to believe me. You might even say you believe me. But you won't believe me, because it doesn't seem possible.

I admire the Old Testament people like Noah and Abraham more. They followed God, not for blessings, but just because he was God, and it was his world. I think that would show a level of wisdom being able to recognize one's place in the world instead of trying to seize another.

fan_from_texas;744107 wrote:I think you misunderstand how Christianity works. It isn't based on being good--it's based on grace.

May I direct you to this portion of my post...

Bigred1995;744095 wrote:I find it ironic that so many Christians claim that Christianity & their God is the foundation of morality, but admits that it doesn't matter if you're the most righteous, good person in the world, that if you don't believe in their God, you're going to hell! The number of good works someone does or the number of bad works they do doesn't factor into the equation.

Notice where I say that being good doesn't matter? I think I have a pretty good idea of how Christianity works!

fan_from_texas;744107 wrote: You can disagree with that and think it's silly, but I'm not sure why you should get mad if people who believe the tenets of a particular religion support, you know, the religion they believe.

Please show me where I voiced any sort of anger about how Christianity works? I was merely pointing out the irony in that particular idea!

Bigred1995;744123 wrote:Please show me where I voiced any sort of anger about how Christianity works? I was merely pointing out the irony in that particular idea!

I have to admit, you did seem kind of hostile, but I'm willing to admit it was probably just the kind of communication that comes with a message board and I didn't read the sentiment correctly.

For what it's worth, I think morality was forming long before there was any real structure to the worldview of someone who followed Yehvah.

O-Trap;744130 wrote:I have to admit, you did seem kind of hostile, but I'm willing to admit it was probably just the kind of communication that comes with a message board and I didn't read the sentiment correctly.

For what it's worth, I think morality was forming long before there was any real structure to the worldview of someone who followed Yehvah.

i guess that's something I'll have to work on. Maybe I'll add more or to my post to avoid the confusion

fan_from_texas;744107 wrote:I think you misunderstand how Christianity works. It isn't based on being good--it's based on grace. The number of good works someone does or the number of bad works they do doesn't factor into the equation. You can disagree with that and think it's silly, but I'm not sure why you should get mad if people who believe the tenets of a particular religion support, you know, the religion they believe.

+1.

Santa Claus is based on being good. Christianity is based simply in belief.

That said, I consider myself an agnostic? I think there is something wrong with someone's brain is they believe in the literal writing, translation, and interpretation of the bible. But I can't be an atheist because I think science does little more than prove it all wasn't an accident. I simply am wise enough to know I don't have a fucking clue.

Now my roommate will say that God has all the power in imaginable so he simply could have made it look like the earth was billions of years old and that we came from evolution, simply as a matter of testing faith. While I admire the creativity, my God wouldn't be such a bitch about it.

Bigred1995;744135 wrote:i guess that's something I'll have to work on. Maybe I'll add more or to my post to avoid the confusion

I actually do this sometimes, just to avoid confusion.

I think for some of you … it would be good to read :

Can America Survive? By John Hagee

I just finished it …. Do yourself a favor and read it ….

believer;744035 wrote:Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

Enter now the heretics, thread bombers, and unbelievers.

If you are Christian +1

If you were born before Christ?

Muslim?

Jew?

Turtle?

Bigred1995;744135 wrote:i guess that's something I'll have to work on. Maybe I'll add more or to my post to avoid the confusion

I'll echo O-Trap--to the extent you weren't angry, my apologies on the miscommunication.

Belly35;744176 wrote:I think for some of you … it would be good to read :

Can America Survive? By John Hagee

I just finished it …. Do yourself a favor and read it ….

At the risk of taking this thread in a direction it wasn't meant to go, wasn't Hagee the guy who said that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment on New Orleans for having a certain level of sin or something like that? Because of a Gay Pride parade going on that day?

Eh, I've never heard TOO much out of that guy that wasn't politically charged as much as it was biblical. You can recommend him if you like, but I can't say I would.

What happens to all the awesome folks who came before Jesus? Are they screwed?

Honestly curious, i've always wondered how theologians deal with the question of where the souls of those who came before Jesus/the Bible have ended up. But i'm currently too lazy to look it up.

OSH;744111 wrote:If heaven, in the Christian sense, is a place where God is...why would an atheist want to go spend an eternity with God when they didn't want to spend a few years with them when they were on earth? To me, if a person rejects God on earth, why wouldn't they just reject God if given the opportunity to go into heaven? It doesn't make any sense to me for an atheist to deny God, but would spend the afterlife with Him in heaven...make sense of that for me, please?

I hope that Christians aren't just believing in God/Jesus so they can "stave off damnation or buy their way into heaven." I find it hard to believe that would be an acceptable means of obtaining an eternity in heaven -- it may be, but there's much more to a Christian life than that.

Yep, you clearly don't understand what an atheist is.

It's not that they somehow don't want to believe in God, it's that they don't. Much like you didn't wake up one day and say "I want to believe in God". Because if you did that with matters of faith you'd only be lying to yourself.

Atheists don't deny God, they don't believe in him/aren't convinced by the people who tell them about him.

It's a group of people that say "wait a minute, I don't think what you said adds up". Not a group of people that said "God, heaven? No, screw that".

O-Trap;744210 wrote:At the risk of taking this thread in a direction it wasn't meant to go, wasn't Hagee the guy who said that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment on New Orleans for having a certain level of sin or something like that? Because of a Gay Pride parade going on that day?

Eh, I've never heard TOO much out of that guy that wasn't politically charged as much as it was biblical. You can recommend him if you like, but I can't say I would.

Agreed. Anyone who thinks God intentionally does bad things to us out of spite is ignorant and not worth listening to. God allows bad things to happen b/c there's evil in this world and you have the choice to accept evil. God doesn't make it happen. God also allows you to accept him and his help even through bad things.

cbus4life;744648 wrote:What happens to all the awesome folks who came before Jesus? Are they screwed?

Honestly curious, i've always wondered how theologians deal with the question of where the souls of those who came before Jesus/the Bible have ended up. But i'm currently too lazy to look it up.

I think this is a great question that I don't know or know where to find the answer. I do believe in a supreme being (God), but there is so many questions that I choose to just accept the fact that I may not ever know the answers in this lifetime or the next.

One thought that comes to my head about what happened to the people before Jesus is that once Jesus was born, the "game" changed so to speak. Possibly God put Jesus on Earth to save the souls of all man (and the souls of the dead). I don't know, just a theory.

cbus4life;744648 wrote:What happens to all the awesome folks who came before Jesus? Are they screwed?

This is where I put on my Dispensationalist hat. Though the recompense offered by Christ spanned time in both directions (including before), God didn't hold people to believing or following something he had yet to reveal to humanity. As such, it was still "by grace, through faith" that a person living pre-Jeebuz was able to have a relationship with the Creator, and the act which made it possible was still the crucifixion/resurrection. The difference was how that faith played out.

It's a great question, and for me, it does open some fun discussion about what is and isn't necessary for a relationship with God (for example, my article in the Evangelical Philosophical Society's quarterly journal a few years back argued that many Old Testament heros didn't believe in any life after death at all).

cbus4life;744648 wrote:Honestly curious, i've always wondered how theologians deal with the question of where the souls of those who came before Jesus/the Bible have ended up. But i'm currently too lazy to look it up.

I actually think it's so fascinating to see the perspective from the people at that time. Afterlife wasn't a concern. Therefore, following God wasn't a "get-out-of-hell-free" card. Many of them did it just because he was God, they were his creation, and they understood their role in this world as being no greater than to fulfill the life that their Creator willed them to live, all the while trusting that he willed them out of benevolence (the faith part).

ZWICK 4 PREZ;744669 wrote:Agreed. Anyone who thinks God intentionally does bad things to us out of spite is ignorant and not worth listening to.

Sodom and Gomorrah?

Noah's ark?

Just askin.....

Thread Bomber;744807 wrote:Sodom and Gomorrah?

Noah's ark?

Just askin.....

I think the contention is the word "spite."

The flood (according to the story) really was just used as a giant eraser.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, it appears similar. Check God's plan afterward for them (Ezekiel 16 mentions God restoring Sodom because it was more righteous when it was destroyed than the Hebrew people were at the time of Ezekiel writing).

No contention can be made that God did not allow, or even bring, destruction on things for moral reasons. He may still (I tend to avoid theodicy, so I would never say either way). I think the issue was "spite."

fish82;744097 wrote:All atheists go to Cleveland and are forced to purchase Browns season tickets for all eternity.

And I thought they became personal assistants to Art Modell. Shows how much I know.

Atheists around the world are asking the question:

"Who gives a shit?"

Thread Bomber;744807 wrote:Sodom and Gomorrah?

Noah's ark?

Just askin.....

I thought the best part of S&G was how Lot's idea on how to solve the problem of dudes wanting to hump angels was to try pimping his daughters off on them. And he was the good guy worth saving. "Man, this guy is so determined to protect god's angels that he just signed his girls up for a 24-hour bukkake-o-rama in an attempt to distract everyone! HIS FAMILY LIVES!!!!"

The Old Testament's awesome.

"No no no, don't rape those angels. Rape my daughters instead."

Here's a fun one for discussion:

The writer of Genesis penned that God said (during creation):
"Let us make man in our image ..."

Does this refer to any sort of multi-faceted element of God, such as the Trinity doctrine? If so, then why did the writer and the people of God not believe or even consider any such idea about God? There is no reference to, or evidence of, the Hebrew people knowing of any kind of trinitarian view, but they penned, studied, and debated over the Septuagint for hundreds of years.

I Wear Pants;744849 wrote:"No no no, don't rape those angels. Rape my daughters instead."

Maybe he thought that since the men were all up for some good ol'-fashioned guy-on-guy action, that they would refuse the daughters?

Hell, I don't know. Either way, it was not one of Lot's brighter moments.

O-Trap;744852 wrote:Here's a fun one for discussion:

The writer of Genesis penned that God said (during creation):
"Let us make man in our image ..."

Does this refer to any sort of multi-faceted element of God, such as the Trinity doctrine? If so, then why did the writer and the people of God not believe or even consider any such idea about God? There is no reference to, or evidence of, the Hebrew people knowing of any kind of trinitarian view, but they penned, studied, and debated over the Septuagint for hundreds of years.

Perhaps the same reason the monarchs of old (and current monarchs) always referred to themselves as "us and we" when giving speeches, writing letters, dictating laws?
I don't know, but conjecturing is fun!

*EDIT

I've got to leave for a while, but just a short note saying that there's reasons that the practice of "we" has been and is used.

O-Trap;744852 wrote:Here's a fun one for discussion:

The writer of Genesis penned that God said (during creation):
"Let us make man in our image ..."

Does this refer to any sort of multi-faceted element of God, such as the Trinity doctrine? If so, then why did the writer and the people of God not believe or even consider any such idea about God? There is no reference to, or evidence of, the Hebrew people knowing of any kind of trinitarian view, but they penned, studied, and debated over the Septuagint for hundreds of years.

What are your views about the idea that Asherah was the wife of the Christian God and that she was worshiped along side of him?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42154769/ns/technology_and_science-science/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sw-NFvueK8