Describe How You Think a Merit Based Pay System Would Work

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georgemc80

Senior Member

983 posts
Apr 29, 2011 8:03 AM
Really? I don't like anybody under 12 years of age, however, there is way too much devolopment from 5-12 to say it is unimportant. Its not always about academics. Chalk it up to the ramblings of those uneducated in child development.
Apr 29, 2011 8:03am
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Apr 29, 2011 8:25 AM
georgemc80;754029 wrote:Really? I don't like anybody under 12 years of age, however, there is way too much devolopment from 5-12 to say it is unimportant. Its not always about academics. Chalk it up to the ramblings of those uneducated in child development.


What???? I understand that the formative years are very important. No one said it was "unimportant". Manhattan said pay them what they are worth. Who is it that you believe is uneducated in child development??
Apr 29, 2011 8:25am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Apr 29, 2011 10:28 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;753929 wrote:Yes and yes. Pay kindergarten teachers what they are worth, and pay HS calculus teachers what they are worth. It is a simple concept, and again is how it works in most other industries. Kindergarten teachers and union supporters will bitch about it, but if we are serious about improving schools this is the way to go.

What is their "worth" in $$$ amount to you? Honesty curious.
Apr 29, 2011 10:28am
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Apr 29, 2011 10:55 AM
ernest_t_bass;754151 wrote:What is their "worth" in $$$ amount to you? Honesty curious.
Isn't that what teachers need to find out/know for themselves, along with their respective schools?

Without collective bargaining, you're asking the wrong people this question.
Apr 29, 2011 10:55am
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georgemc80

Senior Member

983 posts
Apr 29, 2011 10:56 AM
How do we decide what each teacher is worth? I for one use more of the skills taught to me in 3rd grade, on a day to day basis, than my Calculus teacher. Education is not a business. It cannot be treated as such.

The change you speak of will take decades. No industry can survive the radical changes many are proposing. The elimination of unions? Easily done...you have my support.
Apr 29, 2011 10:56am
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wkfan

Senior Member

1,641 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:01 AM
CenterBHSFan;754182 wrote:Isn't that what teachers need to find out/know for themselves, along with their respective schools?

Without collective bargaining, you're asking the wrong people this question.
Nope.

"Management' (aka the district administration) needs to set the pay ranges (aka 'value' of the position) for the employees (aka teachers). At that point, the teacher can make the determination if they want to accept the pay scale or go find another job. That's how it works in what you all call 'the real world'.

I think the question posed to Manhattan Buckeye is what he feels that value is for a Kindergarten teacher since he is the one who made the suggestion that a Kindergarten teacher should not be paid as much as a HS calculus teacher.
Apr 29, 2011 11:01am
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:04 AM
georgemc80;754183 wrote:... I for one use more of the skills taught to me in 3rd grade, on a day to day basis, than my Calculus teacher.

...
Although you might have a greater applied value to the things taught to you in third grade there is a supply and demand component to the calculus teacher. Calculus is necessary for certain educational disciplines. To attract an able calculus teacher would take a higher compensation package than for a third grade teacher.
Apr 29, 2011 11:04am
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:06 AM
wkfan;754187 wrote:...

I think the question posed to Manhattan Buckeye is what he feels that value is for a Kindergarten teacher since he is the one who made the suggestion that a Kindergarten teacher should not be paid as much as a HS calculus teacher.
He did not say pay one less than the other. He said to pay them what they are worth.


Manhattan Buckeye;753929 wrote: Pay kindergarten teachers what they are worth, and pay HS calculus teachers what they are worth. ...
Apr 29, 2011 11:06am
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georgemc80

Senior Member

983 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:08 AM
How does that Calculus teacher do with his students if they don't have the basic skills of say Algebra? How does the algebra teacher do if his/her students don't have the basic skills of multiplication and division? Education builds off of each other.

We do not work with a product. We don't work with a commodity. A good school contains students, faculty, staff, administrators parents and community that have one common goal. Working together to make a culture of school spirit and success in a building.
Apr 29, 2011 11:08am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:09 AM
CenterBHSFan;754182 wrote:Isn't that what teachers need to find out/know for themselves, along with their respective schools?

Without collective bargaining, you're asking the wrong people this question.

No, because I asked an opinion. Aren't I allowed to do that?
Apr 29, 2011 11:09am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:10 AM
Con_Alma;754193 wrote:He did not say pay one less than the other. He said to pay them what they are worth.

No, his answer to my question was, "yes and yes."

My question was, "Honest question... So what do you do to the non-core teachers now? Do you cut their pay, to level the playing field, giving the core-teachers more? Or do you give "merit-based" raises to core-teachers?"
Apr 29, 2011 11:10am
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:11 AM
...Because their values are different. Did he state which was to be paid less?
Apr 29, 2011 11:11am
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wkfan

Senior Member

1,641 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:13 AM
Con_Alma;754192 wrote:Although you might have a greater applied value to the things taught to you in third grade there is a supply and demand component to the calculus teacher. Calculus is necessary for certain educational disciplines. To attract an able calculus teacher would take a higher compensation package than for a third grade teacher.
While this may be true, the demand for calculus teacher is less than 3rd grade teachers, so that could even out the supply / demand curves between HS calculus teachers and 3rd grade teachers.

To illustrate, in our district, we have 11 elementary buildings and 2 high schools. There are appx 30 3rd grade teachers througout the district.....and appx 6 calculus teachers. I would venture to say that the supply of 3rd grade teachers is not 5 times that of calculus teachers, so the supply / demand curves for both may be pretty close.
Apr 29, 2011 11:13am
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:13 AM
georgemc80;754194 wrote:How does that Calculus teacher do with his students if they don't have the basic skills of say Algebra? How does the algebra teacher do if his/her students don't have the basic skills of multiplication and division? Education builds off of each other.

We do not work with a product. We don't work with a commodity. A good school contains students, faculty, staff, administrators parents and community that have one common goal. Working together to make a culture of school spirit and success in a building.


Indeed, yet one still is more difficult to attract and has a limited supply making his/her services more valuable.

It's easier to obtain a quality elementary teacher than it is a physics or calculus teacher.
Apr 29, 2011 11:13am
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wkfan

Senior Member

1,641 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:14 AM
Con_Alma;754193 wrote:He did not say pay one less than the other. He said to pay them what they are worth.
Please tell me that you can infer what someone means without it being specifically spelled out???
Apr 29, 2011 11:14am
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:14 AM
wkfan;754201 wrote:While this may be true, the demand for calculus teacher is less than 3rd grade teachers, so that could even out the supply / demand curves between HS calculus teachers and 3rd grade teachers.

...
I don't disagree. The supply will determine such...so let it.
Apr 29, 2011 11:14am
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Apr 29, 2011 11:15 AM
wkfan;754203 wrote:Please tell me that you can infer what someone means without it being specifically spelled out???


I can't any more than those inferring the opposite of me.
Apr 29, 2011 11:15am
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

Senior Member

7,809 posts
Apr 29, 2011 2:57 PM
CenterBHSFan;753549 wrote:Are you saying that policemen or firefighters cannot get hired, keep a job, get an increase in pay or whatever else on his/her own?

If that is what you are saying... why not?
you referring to me? what i was saying is you may get a ticket every time you get pulled over. you may get a citation for the dumbest crimes because that cop is going to be showing he is working etc.
Apr 29, 2011 2:57pm
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WebFire

Go Bucks!

14,779 posts
Apr 29, 2011 3:59 PM
BRF;753218 wrote:Right. How many arrests you make or how many tickets you issue? How many fire calls you are in on? How good do you kiss up to your superiors?

It's crazy. Kasich can stuff it, along with all who support this insanity. Suggestions......pfft!
This is one of the worst anti-SB5 arguments. I work in IT. I don't get paid by how many email accounts I create. Or how many trouble tickets I handle. Or how many servers I maintain. Get it?
Apr 29, 2011 3:59pm
BRF's avatar

BRF

Senior Member

8,748 posts
Apr 29, 2011 6:15 PM
WebFire;754555 wrote:This is one of the worst anti-SB5 arguments. I work in IT. I don't get paid by how many email accounts I create. Or how many trouble tickets I handle. Or how many servers I maintain. Get it?

No, I don't "get it". And my anti-SB5 argument is no worse than most of the slop being served by the pro-SB5 side.
Apr 29, 2011 6:15pm
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WebFire

Go Bucks!

14,779 posts
Apr 29, 2011 6:51 PM
BRF;754632 wrote:No, I don't "get it". And my anti-SB5 argument is no worse than most of the slop being served by the pro-SB5 side.

You don't want to get it. I don't blame you. If I was a public employee, I'd be for SB5 too.
Apr 29, 2011 6:51pm
BRF's avatar

BRF

Senior Member

8,748 posts
Apr 29, 2011 7:06 PM
WebFire;754704 wrote:You don't want to get it. I don't blame you. If I was a public employee, I'd be for SB5 too.

No, I don't want to "get it" because the SB5 proponents want to tell the public sector how it should be and expect us to just take it. When someone has something and another tries to take it away, there will be heel dragging and then there will be a fight. That is where we are now.

IMO, it's pretty easy to say you would be for it when you aren't in it.
Apr 29, 2011 7:06pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Apr 29, 2011 7:18 PM
BRF;754741 wrote:No, I don't want to "get it" because the SB5 proponents want to tell the public sector how it should be and expect us to just take it. When someone has something and another tries to take it away, there will be heel dragging and then there will be a fight. That is where we are now.

IMO, it's pretty easy to say you would be for it when you aren't in it.

But you don't work for the union, and the union is not part of your job description.
Apr 29, 2011 7:18pm
BRF's avatar

BRF

Senior Member

8,748 posts
Apr 29, 2011 8:29 PM
CenterBHSFan;754749 wrote:But you don't work for the union, and the union is not part of your job description.

And the point of this is....? I know, unions are bad and need to be eliminated. Right?
Apr 29, 2011 8:29pm
Belly35's avatar

Belly35

Elderly Intellectual

9,716 posts
Apr 29, 2011 8:57 PM
Can there be comparison the usefulness of the Unions to the usefulness of the NAACP? Have they both out grown there place in society?




open can of worms... :D
Apr 29, 2011 8:57pm