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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Politics ▸ Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!
C

centralbucksfan

Senior Member

5,111 posts
Feb 21, 2011 6:26 PM
sleeper;686355 wrote:If you're the type of teacher in Ohio that we are overpaying, then good riddance.

LOL...typical intelligent response from you. Real similar to your NOTHING comments on the sports boards.
Feb 21, 2011 6:26pm
LJ's avatar

LJ

Senior Member

16,351 posts
Feb 21, 2011 6:29 PM
CBF and Sleeper you are toeing the line....
Feb 21, 2011 6:29pm
Little Danny's avatar

Little Danny

Senior Member

4,288 posts
Feb 21, 2011 6:33 PM
I have to chuckle in amusement in a thread where IWP is accused of listening to John Kasich and the Tea Party and Sleeper is actually making a little sense.
Feb 21, 2011 6:33pm
dwccrew's avatar

dwccrew

Not Banned

7,817 posts
Feb 21, 2011 6:41 PM
bonelizzard;686359 wrote:Post #659 Yea DW I said Constitutional right didn’t I? Well what I meant to say was “American Right” See I talk far much better than I type. Because I deal with people and kids, not keyboards. Haven’t avoided the question, just haven’t been on here much lately. I feel that we as Americans because we live in a free country can or should be able to collectively bargain wages, salaries, benefits etc. Private sector or public, doesn’t make a difference to me. Yep I was wrong with the “effective” part of phone conversations. What I meant to say was more “personal” That’s all so yes, I was wrong..(happy face)
Not sure how I’m being sensitive or bent out of shape. I’m not using bold or all caps. right now am I?

I am not sure if it is an American right either. If it was, wouldn't every industry be a part of collective bargaining? I think to believe it is an American right is an opinion. I am not saying you are right or wrong in believing that, I just happen to disagree that it is an American right to collectively bargain. If it is not a constitutional right, in my mind, it is not a guaranteed right. My opinion
Feb 21, 2011 6:41pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Feb 21, 2011 6:58 PM
So public unions don't protect bad teachers, anymore, CBF? Apparently, bad teachers now make less than their counterparts.

I did not know that.

They sure do protect bad state employees, since I'm personally familiar with that (which also are affected by this bill) so on that basis alone, this bill kicks ass and should be supported by every Ohioan.
Feb 21, 2011 6:58pm
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:27 PM
dwccrew;686375 wrote:I am not sure if it is an American right either. If it was, wouldn't every industry be a part of collective bargaining? I think to believe it is an American right is an opinion. I am not saying you are right or wrong in believing that, I just happen to disagree that it is an American right to collectively bargain. If it is not a constitutional right, in my mind, it is not a guaranteed right. My opinion

ok, my opinion. just like your opinion too.. but wouldn't you like to have an opinion on your working contract? private sector, public sector where ever you may work? I bet you would if you could.. just not willing to say it, oops, type it.. my opinion..
Feb 21, 2011 7:27pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:33 PM
bonelizzard;686417 wrote:but wouldn't you like to have an opinion on your working contract?
Umm ... in the private sector, we do. Not only an opinion. If an employer values us as an employee, we exclusively hold the keys to the castle. Nobody else's opinion about the collective performance of my department gets to influence what I ask for when I have a discussion about a raise. Nobody else's incompetence or lack of work ethic can hurt my chances of getting that raise, either. If I'm good at my job (and I am), my employer will pay me as much as he can reasonably afford to do to keep me, because I keep clients coming back instead of shopping around.

Same applies. A good educational system brings more parents into the area ... which brings more tax revenue from those people ... which makes for an easier time paying teachers.
Feb 21, 2011 7:33pm
C

centralbucksfan

Senior Member

5,111 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:39 PM
More facts...some of you need to go find some to back up what your saying, as I have!

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/news_from_epi_epi_study_finds_ohio_public-sector_workers_under-compensated/

"A new Economic Policy Institute study released this week finds that full-time state and local government employees in Ohio are undercompensated by 5.9%,when compared to otherwise similar private-sector workers. By using a comprehensive database that is updated monthly by the U.S. Census Bureau and Bureau of Labor Statistics, the study provides an accurate comparison of public- and private-sector compensation in Ohio"
Feb 21, 2011 7:39pm
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:39 PM
O-Trap;686424 wrote:Umm ... in the private sector, we do. Not only an opinion. If an employer values us as an employee, we exclusively hold the keys to the castle. Nobody else's opinion about the collective performance of my department gets to influence what I ask for when I have a discussion about a raise. Nobody else's incompetence or lack of work ethic can hurt my chances of getting that raise, either. If I'm good at my job (and I am), my employer will pay me as much as he can reasonably afford to do to keep me, because I keep clients coming back instead of shopping around.





Same applies. A good educational system brings more parents into the area ... which brings more tax revenue from those people ... which makes for an easier time paying teachers.


I asked DW but if you'd like to respond Otrap... cool.. Was that yes or no that you'd like to have a voice in your working contract?
Not sure by your answer. and oh yea, was that a bold I in your quote? I was reprimanded for using bold by a moderator. Guess you're exempt from that?
Feb 21, 2011 7:39pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:42 PM
bonelizzard;686433 wrote:I asked DW but if you'd like to respond Otrap... cool..
Haven't been on much today. Thought I'd chime in. :D
bonelizzard;686433 wrote:Was that yes or no that you'd like to have a voice in your working contract?
Do I like that I DO have a voice in my working contract? Yes, I enjoy it quite a bit.
bonelizzard;686433 wrote:and oh yea, was that a bold I in your quote? I was reprimanded for using bold by a moderator. Guess you're exempt from that?

I wasn't around for any such discussion, but I'll remove that in the name of everyone being subject to the same rules ...
Feb 21, 2011 7:42pm
C

centralbucksfan

Senior Member

5,111 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:45 PM
O-Trap;686424 wrote:Same applies. A good educational system brings more parents into the area ... which brings more tax revenue from those people ... which makes for an easier time paying teachers.

Wrong. It brings more pressure and calls from those parents who have high expectations!! Believe me, I have worked in one!! It makes somethings easier, because that parental support is there, no question. But that comes with much, much higher expectations! Which I have no problem with. But its certainly more pressure as well.
I will NEVER judge what you do, because I haven't done your job. Try doing the samething until you have walked in a teachers shoes.
Feb 21, 2011 7:45pm
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:50 PM
ok, let me see if I can word this properly? So all employees in the private sector can say specifically to the employer what wage they want to earn?
Feb 21, 2011 7:50pm
C

centralbucksfan

Senior Member

5,111 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:50 PM
centralbucksfan;686431 wrote:More facts...some of you need to go find some to back up what your saying, as I have!

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/news_from_epi_epi_study_finds_ohio_public-sector_workers_under-compensated/

"A new Economic Policy Institute study released this week finds that full-time state and local government employees in Ohio are undercompensated by 5.9%,when compared to otherwise similar private-sector workers. By using a comprehensive database that is updated monthly by the U.S. Census Bureau and Bureau of Labor Statistics, the study provides an accurate comparison of public- and private-sector compensation in Ohio"

Another quote from this article!! Read it..great FACTS!!

"The study makes clear that public employees—like every other American worker—have in fact been victims of the worst recession since the Great Depression. In fact, severe financial problems as a result of the Great Recession have forced state, county and municipal elected officials across the country to make massive cuts in spending. As a result, tens of thousands of public-sector employees have been laid off and thousands more have been subject to forced furloughs, pay freezes and cuts in benefits.

compared to private-sector counterparts, says EPI study"
Feb 21, 2011 7:50pm
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:51 PM
bonelizzard;686448 wrote:ok, let me see if I can word this properly? So all employees in the private sector can say specifically to the employer what wage they want to earn?

that's to Otrap.. sorry
Feb 21, 2011 7:51pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 21, 2011 7:53 PM
centralbucksfan;686443 wrote:Wrong. It brings more pressure and calls from those parents who have high expectations!!
Two things. One, that may indeed be true. What's wrong with "high expectations?"

And two, it's an indisputable fact that if more people live in the area, there are more people putting taxes toward the respective schools in that district. Fact.
centralbucksfan;686443 wrote:Believe me, I have worked in one!!
As does my wife.
centralbucksfan;686443 wrote:It makes somethings easier, because that parental support is there, no question. But that comes with much, much higher expectations! Which I have no problem with. But its certainly more pressure as well.
I don't doubt that one bit. I'm encouraged that you don't mind high expectations, and please don't believe that I think you're not a good teacher. I can only assume the passion with which you've made yourself known on here is carried over into your job as a teacher. Trust me, that's a good thing, and that's the kind of teacher who I want making MORE than the average of the collective.

But remember, most of the rats in the rat race know a thing or two about pressure as well. I haven't gotten a lunch break (on a work day) since last Tuesday, because the pressure was on, there were deadlines to meet, and all my attention needed to be on hitting them, so I didn't have time for a break.
centralbucksfan;686443 wrote:I will NEVER judge what you do, because I haven't done your job. Try doing the samething until you have walked in a teachers shoes.
I share the struggles with a teacher every night.
Feb 21, 2011 7:53pm
F

fan_from_texas

Senior Member

2,693 posts
Feb 21, 2011 8:44 PM
bonelizzard;686448 wrote:ok, let me see if I can word this properly? So all employees in the private sector can say specifically to the employer what wage they want to earn?

Yes. And if the employer thinks they're worth it, they get it. Otherwise, they're unemployed.
Feb 21, 2011 8:44pm
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dwccrew

Not Banned

7,817 posts
Feb 21, 2011 9:01 PM
bonelizzard;686417 wrote:ok, my opinion. just like your opinion too.. but wouldn't you like to have an opinion on your working contract? private sector, public sector where ever you may work? I bet you would if you could.. just not willing to say it, oops, type it.. my opinion..
I do have a voice in my working contract. People who can negotiate their own contract have a louder voice than they would in a collective bargaining contract. More say in what you specifically want, instead of what the group wants.

Again, I am not sure why you are so sensitive. Why do you have to have a condescending tone in all of your posts? Can't we just have a mature discussion? Yes, I have an opinion just like you. I respect your opinion, I just disagree with your position on the topic.
bonelizzard;686448 wrote:ok, let me see if I can word this properly? So all employees in the private sector can say specifically to the employer what wage they want to earn?
Yeah, they do. They can say what wage they want to earn and negotiate from that point. It is bargaining, just not collectively. You can be more involved with your own contract in this situation and focus on the things you'd personally like to have rather than what the group wants.
Feb 21, 2011 9:01pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 21, 2011 9:43 PM
centralbucksfan;686431 wrote:More facts...some of you need to go find some to back up what your saying, as I have!

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/news_from_epi_epi_study_finds_ohio_public-sector_workers_under-compensated/

"A new Economic Policy Institute study released this week finds that full-time state and local government employees in Ohio are undercompensated by 5.9%,when compared to otherwise similar private-sector workers. By using a comprehensive database that is updated monthly by the U.S. Census Bureau and Bureau of Labor Statistics, the study provides an accurate comparison of public- and private-sector compensation in Ohio"

There's an assload of flaws in this study. Let's start with the 5.9% number. That doesn't include the less annual hours the Public sector works, so the real number is only 3.3%.

Second flaw, he ignores(although talks about) the higher compensation package of retirement and health care. Convenient.

Third, he states he doesn't have an accurate way of determining how to compare private and public, so he was going to just use education level and years of experience. Sorry, but a doctor is going to earn more money than a teacher, same with a lawyer, or an engineer. I love how he decides that using Private educators salaries in this study for reasons such as "They are selective and remove poor students".

There's no doubt in my mind this study(conveniently dated 10 days ago) is written by a Union cockgobbler and just at the surface it smells like shit, so without wasting my time actually diving any deeper, I'm going to go ahead and call it SHIT.
Feb 21, 2011 9:43pm
M

mella

Senior Member

647 posts
Feb 21, 2011 9:48 PM
Interesting fact: Wisconsin has the 49th lowest starting salary. Their union must not very strong state wide or they have a lot of very small districts that bring the average down.

link:

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
Feb 21, 2011 9:48pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Feb 21, 2011 9:55 PM
That advocacy group believes wealth should be redistributed so that everyone gets a nice chunk of the pie -- whether they've earned it or not.

It's very socialistic in its mission statement, so the fact that it comes out strongly in favor of government workers should not be a surprise to anyone.
Feb 21, 2011 9:55pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 21, 2011 9:56 PM
Also, Ohio has only lost 1600 public sector employees since 2000.

The private sector? 612,700

Time for the public to share the pain. Slash their benefits or slash their jobs.
Feb 21, 2011 9:56pm
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 21, 2011 10:36 PM
dwccrew;686585 wrote:I do have a voice in my working contract. People who can negotiate their own contract have a louder voice than they would in a collective bargaining contract. More say in what you specifically want, instead of what the group wants.

Again, I am not sure why you are so sensitive. Why do you have to have a condescending tone in all of your posts? Can't we just have a mature discussion? Yes, I have an opinion just like you. I respect your opinion, I just disagree with your position on the topic.



Yeah, they do. They can say what wage they want to earn and negotiate from that point. It is bargaining, just not collectively. You can be more involved with your own contract in this situation and focus on the things you'd personally like to have rather than what the group wants.
Does that mean all private sector folks can negotiate their own contracts? How and/or what way am I being so sensitive? Please elaborate? We're not having a mature discussion? This isn't a mature thread? Elaborate on that one too if you don't mind.

Personally I like strength in numbers.. Being a team player. That's not condescending is it? I see your a football fan.. Looks like you like teams too. Not a slam, not personal just my opinion..
Feb 21, 2011 10:36pm
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dwccrew

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7,817 posts
Feb 21, 2011 10:58 PM
bonelizzard;686716 wrote:Does that mean all private sector folks can negotiate their own contracts?
I've already addressed this as have others.

bonelizzard;686716 wrote:Personally I like strength in numbers.. Being a team player. That's not condescending is it? I see your a football fan.. Looks like you like teams too. Not a slam, not personal just my opinion..
Not really sure how you can equate sports teams to collective bargaining considering it is two entirely different situations, but ok. So are you equating the union/collective bargaining group as a team? A sports teams goal is too work together to defeat an opponent. Does the union look at who they are bargaining with as an opponent? If so, that doesn't really create a good working relationship IMO.
Feb 21, 2011 10:58pm
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 21, 2011 11:31 PM
dwccrew;686750 wrote:I've already addressed this as have others.
Not really sure how you can equate sports teams to collective bargaining considering it is two entirely different situations, but ok. So are you equating the union/collective bargaining group as a team? A sports teams goal is too work together to defeat an opponent. Does the union look at who they are bargaining with as an opponent? If so, that doesn't really create a good working relationship IMO.
So the first time employee at McDonalds can negotiate with his boss whether he makes minimum wage or let's say $30.00/hr? Hey probably not the best example, but an example of a private sector job nonetheless. I also suppose that the new McDonald's want to be could ask his employer that question but you know as well as I that he would be laughed right out of that restaurant. I know that first year teachers can join their union and discuss wages amongst their fellow union memebers. Right?
Feb 21, 2011 11:31pm
W

WebFire

Go Bucks!

14,779 posts
Feb 21, 2011 11:34 PM
Way to use extremes to try and validate your argument. You know damn well what they mean.
Feb 21, 2011 11:34pm