A
Al Bundy
Posts: 4,180
Jan 31, 2011 2:04pm
It would be horrible PR, but the other problem is that no one really has an accurate count. I have seen numbers listed all over the place for civilian casualty counts and refugees.I Wear Pants;659180 wrote:Neither the Bush or Obama administrations have ever really touched on the civilian casualty counts or the refugees created by these wars. Probably because we wouldn't like what we'd be hearing.
I
I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Jan 31, 2011 2:05pm
Yeah, but even the low end numbers are disgusting.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jan 31, 2011 2:08pm
I Wear Pants;659194 wrote:Yeah, but even the low end numbers are disgusting.
Yep, but if you keep it out of the public eye, you avoid scrutiny over it.
When the news is saying, "omg lindsey lohan is in rehab again! lolol" instead, that's what people talk about and formulate opinions on.
Red herring to a 'T'.
dwccrew
Posts: 7,817
Feb 1, 2011 1:35am
IMO if we do not support the people of Egypt, it makes us hypocrits. We want the people of this region to have democracy, this is democracy. The people want change in leadership and they want it now. If we support an unpopular leader that the majority want to get rid of, it makes us look like we only want democracy in the form of a government that we have major influence on. That may not be how it is with Mubarak, but that is how it will be perceived.believer;658769 wrote:First, back-up the "million deaths" figure. One death is too much so that's not my point. But a million deaths? Really? You can do better than that.
Second, realpolitik says that turning our backs on long-time ally yet acknowledged dictator Mubarack because it's now politically correct to empathize with the protesters will show weakness in American foreign policy. Can we be counted on to back-up our allies even if they flounder? By doing so are we doomed to create another Iran situation?
This is not a black & white pick & choose issue. Frankly we're in a damned if we do, damned if we don't scenario. That's hardly a "good thing."
On the other hand, if we support the people of Egypt, it will not make us look weak. It'll make us look genuinely supportive of the democractic process.
O-Trap;658894 wrote:Problem is, most governments that rise to power are seen as extremists by some.
Bingo!
O-Trap;659201 wrote:Yep, but if you keep it out of the public eye, you avoid scrutiny over it.
When the news is saying, "omg lindsey lohan is in rehab again! lolol" instead, that's what people talk about and formulate opinions on.
Red herring to a 'T'.
Yeah, but I needs my Lindsay Lohan updates regularly.
FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
Feb 1, 2011 9:32am
dwccrew;660201 wrote:IMO if we do not support the people of Egypt, it makes us hypocrits. We want the people of this region to have democracy, this is democracy. The people want change in leadership and they want it now. If we support an unpopular leader that the majority want to get rid of, it makes us look like we only want democracy in the form of a government that we have major influence on. That may not be how it is with Mubarak, but that is how it will be perceived.
On the other hand, if we support the people of Egypt, it will not make us look weak. It'll make us look genuinely supportive of the democractic process.
I agree. Do we support democracy or only governments that benefit us?
CenterBHSFan
Posts: 6,115
Feb 1, 2011 10:04am
Don't they co-mingle?FatHobbit;660368 wrote:I agree. Do we support democracy or only governments that benefit us?
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Feb 1, 2011 10:20am
Some ripples from Tunisia and Egypt:
Jordan King Abdullah II dismisses his government amid protests:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/31/AR2011013103692.html?hpid=topnews
Encouraging sign, but we'll see what happens the rest of the region.
Jordan King Abdullah II dismisses his government amid protests:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/31/AR2011013103692.html?hpid=topnews
Encouraging sign, but we'll see what happens the rest of the region.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Feb 1, 2011 10:21am
dwccrew;660201 wrote:Bingo!
I'm willing to bet the Brits would have seen us as "extremist" rebels when we broke the colonies off.
dwccrew
Posts: 7,817
Feb 1, 2011 10:43am
O-Trap;660438 wrote:I'm willing to bet the Brits would have seen us as "extremist" rebels when we broke the colonies off.
Terrorists even.....GASP!
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Feb 1, 2011 11:14am
dwccrew;660451 wrote:Terrorists even.....GASP!
Given the guerrilla style of combat we were using ... compared to their old-order form.
believer
Posts: 8,153
Feb 1, 2011 11:22am
Yeah but that's coming from a country that also gave us the Beatles.O-Trap;660489 wrote:Given the guerrilla style of combat we were using ... compared to their old-order form.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Feb 1, 2011 11:31am
believer;660497 wrote:Yeah but that's coming from a country that also gave us the Beatles.
They also gave us some kick-ass beer, though.
FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
Feb 1, 2011 11:31am
CenterBHSFan;660411 wrote:Don't they co-mingle?
I think there can be democratic governments that aren't friendly towards the US. So my question is which do we support more, democracy or friendly governments?
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Feb 1, 2011 11:36am
FatHobbit;660508 wrote:I think there can be democratic governments that aren't friendly towards the US. So my question is which do we support more, democracy or friendly governments?
I go with democracy.
"Friendly" can change, and rather quickly.
Just make sure you carry a big, f---ing stick, so that even if they aren't "friendly," they play nicely in the sandbox.
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Feb 1, 2011 11:38am
FatHobbit;660508 wrote:I think there can be democratic governments that aren't friendly towards the US. So my question is which do we support more, democracy or friendly governments?
Democracy...with out hesitation.
believer
Posts: 8,153
Feb 1, 2011 11:46am
U.S. foreign policy defined!O-Trap;660514 wrote:Just make sure you carry a big, f---ing stick, so that even if they aren't "friendly," they play nicely in the sandbox.
FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
Feb 1, 2011 11:47am
I agree that its more important that they have a democratic government, but I'm not so sure that's the US position. (It might be the official position.) I wonder if the US would be supportive if they voted in an islamic government? I think a lot of times our official position is in support of democracy and people's rights, but we really care about is how does it affect our interests.
believer
Posts: 8,153
Feb 1, 2011 11:49am
U.S. foreign policy re-defined.FatHobbit;660525 wrote:I agree that its more important that they have a democratic government, but I'm not so sure that's the US position. (It might be the official position.) I wonder if the US would be supportive if they voted in an islamic government? I think a lot of times our official position is in support of democracy and people's rights, but we really care about is how does it affect our interests.
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Feb 1, 2011 11:50am
It should be both. I would be concerned if it wasn't.FatHobbit;660525 wrote:... I think a lot of times our official position is in support of democracy and people's rights, but we really care about is how does it affect our interests.
believer
Posts: 8,153
Feb 1, 2011 12:50pm
- Barrack Hussein Obama speech to the Egyptians June 2009As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Feb 1, 2011 1:01pm
Con_Alma;660531 wrote:It should be both. I would be concerned if it wasn't.
I think this depends.
If it is an issue of them deciding to restructure how they use their own private resources, and it doesn't play into US interest, I don't think the US has any business trying to muscle their way through.
If it has to do with the other country harboring hostility toward the US, then I would say it matters. Still shouldn't try to force the issue, but we should be watching them with guns drawn.
majorspark
Posts: 5,122
Feb 1, 2011 1:15pm
We need to be concerned because the Egyptian military has a lot of our modern weapons, including about 1,000 A1M1 Abrams tanks. These toys and many others have been used to keep Mubarak in line, in power, and protect the Suez Canal and keep it open to international shipping.
believer
Posts: 8,153
Feb 1, 2011 1:18pm
You can be certain the Israelis are concerned.majorspark;660630 wrote:We need to be concerned because the Egyptian military has a lot of our modern weapons, including about 1,000 A1M1 Abrams tanks. These toys and many others have been used to keep Mubarak in line, in power, and protect the Suez Canal and keep it open to international shipping.
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Feb 1, 2011 1:30pm
This is of critical international importance.majorspark;660630 wrote:... These toys and many others have been used to keep Mubarak in line, in power, and protect the Suez Canal and keep it open to international shipping.
M
Manhattan Buckeye
Posts: 7,566
Feb 1, 2011 1:32pm
It isn't just the Israelis that are concerned, the Euros are a bit less bullish about this than the U.S. This isn't guaranteed to end well. Hopefully it will, but this isn't some sort of slam dunk of a move towards a liberal democracy...it is a regime change that may or may not advance civil rights values.