http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_TjBNjc9Bo

I recommend you watch this video. It was directed by the former comptroller general of the GAO(non-partisan accounting group for the government). Dispel your ignorance.

HitsRus;657798 wrote:That is probably an understatement. But it doesn't mean that it's hopeless either....only that there is work to be done. I have to admit that I resent Gen "Y' calling me the problem. The Pres. and his minions were swept into power with huge support from the "Y''s. That he is spending away your future is not my generation's fault.

Exactly. Let's just say there's plenty of blame to go around including the Gen Y and X-ers who thought BHO and his porkulus/ObamaKare ilk were the shit just two short years ago.

I'll be one of the first on OC to bitch about rampant, irresponsible Big Government spending and implementation of new entitlement programs, but this absurd whining and finger pointing at previous generations is not going to fix the problem.

To be sure SS/Medicare are national financial burdens but since our big spending politicians in DC couldn't resist dipping into the so-called SS "trust" fund starting about the time I started making my federally mandated "contributions" about 40 years ago, we're all now back biting each other about this "national financial burden" rather than taking the steps necessary to right the ship. And righting the ship doesn't necessarily mean generational sacrifice.

It means taking a good hard look at ALL government spending. It means re-evaluating existing federal, state, and local spending by consolidating redundant, inefficient, and unnecessary programs (let's start with ObamaKare and the Department of Education for examples). It means getting serious about eliminating earmarks (even if it is only 1%), it means getting rid of the absurd inefficiencies/corruption in military spending, etc., etc.

I'll borrow from HitsRus with ideas for fixing this mess:

Social Security can be fixed by those that have the will do so, and it's not that hard.
1) raise the retirement age to reflect increasing life expectancies
2) roll back benefits to those who have not contributed any significant amount to the system.
3)find alternate means of helping fund the system...such as a phased in 25 -50 cents tax on gasoline...offset by a slight decrease in the payroll tax.
4) expanded tax advantage/amounts for IRA's and 401(K)'s
5) provide incentives for healthy people of retirement age to continue working and not draw on the system....such as reduced tax rates.

The lesson in the SS debacle should be that once benevolent Big Government steps in to protect us from ourselves by setting up social safety nets, corruption and cost overruns are inevitable. This is exactly why so many people were and are so incredibly incensed over the ramrodded implementation of ObamaKare.

But the fact remains that America's great socialist experiment (Social Security) was thrust upon us nearly 80 years ago and has become ingrained in our culture. It is not about to simply fade away because our national "leaders" have been caught with their hands in the taxpayer cookie jar or because the Gen X and Y-ers are shedding tears over it. Doing so will cause even greater social, political, and economic upheaval than the dire financial status of the program itself.

For 235 years this great nation has survived far worse crises but because the Gen X and Y-ers spent more time in school learning about inconsequential liberal kumbaya multicultural tree-hugging crap rather than straightforward American history, economics, math, science, etc., they think all is doom & gloom...that their generations are the first Americans to face tough issues.

Bullshit.

It's time to pull yourselves away from the video game mentality and ultra-materialism you've been enjoying and focus on the real world. I have a hunch you'll do just fine.

believer;654942 wrote:I agree and for the record, I can appreciate how frustrated and angry the 20 and 30-something's are at helping to fund SS when it appears that this American socialist ponzi scheme may not be around for you to enjoy when you hit retirement age.

But as I have often posted on OC and that "other" site time and time again, for guys like myself who are in their 50's and looking at retirement just around the corner, Social Security had better be available to us. I've paid into the $2.5 trillion "system" since I collected by first genuine paycheck when I was 15 years old. My grandparents had Social Security/Medicare benefits when they retired and now my parents have it.

Millions of people are in the same boat as myself. We had taxes automatically deducted from our paychecks by Federal mandate for decades and have received annual statements from the Feds showing us what we've paid and what the disbursements will be when we reach retirement age.

Like it or not many if not most average American in my age group view SS as the cornerstone of their retirement. Rightfully so. The Feds collected our money by mandate for decades and made a promise to pay. They'd better make good on that promise. If they do not - if SS is cut and/or eliminated - the Feds are going to have a lot larger problem on their hands than trying to figure out how to repay the "trust" fund. The "trust" fund they've been dipping into (probably illegally) to help pay for DC's incessant and insatiable thirst for spending taxpayer dollars on worthless,redundant, and inefficient Big Government "services."

I'll agree that we need to ween ourselves off the SS system, but this should be a gradual adjustment over the next few decades. As this occurs the Feds and state governments should provide tax shelters and incentives for younger generations entering the workforce to encourage private retirement investments and savings to help offset the gradual phasing-out of SS.

No offense but anyone who has SS as their cornerstone of the retirement plan they are in trouble already.

sleeper;657813 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_TjBNjc9Bo

I recommend you watch this video. It was directed by the former comptroller general of the GAO(non-partisan accounting group for the government). Dispel your ignorance.

Did the video say it is hopeless? Did I say there was work to be done? The difference is only in how 'dire' a viewpoint you take. Whether you want to end SS or fix it doesn't matter as long as those who counted on it are paid what they expect. Without that, then you have yourself contributed to the 'Ponzi' scheme. There are plenty of good ideas on how either could be done, but it will take political courage to do so. What is most obvious is that we cannot continue to run trillion dollar deficits, or new entitlement programs.
You are preaching to the choir with talk of unservicable debt if we continue.

jmog;657901 wrote:No offense but anyone who has SS as their cornerstone of the retirement plan they are in trouble already.

Can't disagree with you but millions of Americans see it that way because they were born and raised with it. Oh and they've paid in to the SS "safety net" for decades whether they wanted to or not. Myself included.

I know plenty of good hard working folks who have saved the best they can but thanks to life circumstances (unforeseeable medical bills, divorce, family financial crises, job loss, and - yes - stupidity) as well as the housing bust we all recently enjoyed, their modest personal savings and 401K's (a relatively new thing by the way) have all but been completely decimated.

And pension plans? Right...Those of us who started out working for companies 30 or 40 years ago that supplied pension plans as part of their compensation packages have watched that pipe dream wither on the vine as well.

So the common assumption is usually, "Well at least I still have SS and a part-time job at Wal Mart to look forward to." Do I agree with this mentality? Not really. Am I guilty of seeing SS as an important part of my retirement? Yes unfortunately. I paid in. I expect to be reimbursed. To me it's no different than if I had put that money in private stocks or savings.

Plus very few of us these days receive inheritances and wealth from mom & dad and land high-paying jobs that provide pension and employer matching 401K programs. As the once mighty American economic machine finally exports the remaining decent paying manufacturing jobs to China and India it's not going to get any better.

Americans in general have a silent "I'll save for retirement later" mentality because our consumer-based society tells us to live and spend for the enjoyment of life at the moment. Live (spend) for today. Very few people are willing to look at their financial futures when our spend-beyond-our-means culture places value on youth and the here and now rather than the virtues of setting aside money for future use.

Societies have always struggled with how to care for their elderly and this is no different. I'm telling you the reason the Feds felt like they had to implement SS 80 years ago is because these things are nothing new.

It is what it is.

HitsRus;657904 wrote:Did the video say it is hopeless? Did I say there was work to be done? The difference is only in how 'dire' a viewpoint you take. Whether you want to end SS or fix it doesn't matter as long as those who counted on it are paid what they expect. Without that, then you have yourself contributed to the 'Ponzi' scheme. There are plenty of good ideas on how either could be done, but it will take political courage to do so. What is most obvious is that we cannot continue to run trillion dollar deficits, or new entitlement programs.
You are preaching to the choir with talk of unservicable debt if we continue.

It's not hopeless, sure, but just ending trillion dollar deficits, and ending any new entitlement programs is NOT going to make the problem go away.

I'd love to hear all these great ideas that you have to get out of this mess. In reality, there is really only two things we have to do to fix the problem:

#1 Raise taxes.
#2 Significant cuts in benefits in SS/M&M and defense

(I'm already assuming we end deficit spending)

That's it. There is no other way out unless we devalue the shit out of the dollar or default. Both of those situations destroy the USA. Will we survive? Yes, but to think anyone under 30(and anyone born now) will have anywhere near the economic prosperity of the boomers is fucking delusional.

sleeper;658020 wrote:There is no other way out unless we devalue the shit out of the dollar or default.

Hhmm....Ever hear of Quantitative Easing 1? Then QE2? QE3 is in the works. What are the ramifications of those? It's a high stakes game of chicken with tax-cheat Geithner, Bernacke the buffoon, and idiot-boy Obama. They are playing toss across with nitro-glycerin and they think they are the smartest men ever created.

I'm not picking on you, as I agree we have to get this disaster under control. But you raised 3 ways to fix the problem and we are following the most dangerous one. May God save us from ourselves.

BGFalcons82;658025 wrote:But you raised 3 ways to fix the problem and we are following the most dangerous one. May God save us from ourselves.

Yes we are and it's a very slippery political, social, and economic slope. And the clowns leading the charge don't have a stellar track record.

May God save us from ourselves, indeed, because when the Feds try to do it, things usually get worse.

HitsRus;657639 wrote:I'd be curious wjhat you and others who want to do away with SS would do as an alternative? As a conservative Republican, I'm all for personmal responsibility, but in reality, what percentage of the population do you feel is actually capable of being financially savvy and disciplined enough to save for a secure retirement without the force of government/government oversight?

I'm not concerned at all with people that aren't financially savvy enough or disciplined enough to save for retirement. Let them suffer then if they don't want to save.

believer;658046 wrote:Yes we are and it's a very slippery political, social, and economic slope. And the clowns leading the charge don't have a stellar track record.

May God save us from ourselves, indeed, because when the Feds try to do it, things usually get worse.

The clowns leading the charge are Boomers. I don't blame the entire Boomer generation, but they are the ones in charge right now and while they may not be totally responsible for the SS mess, they are responsible for leading us further and further down a horrible path, economically speaking.

We are facing a future economic meltdown if we continue spending at the rates we have been, led by Boomers, would you agree? I'm with MB on this one. If I never have to pay into SS again, I'll glaly forfeit anything I have already paid into it. Let the Boomers collect what they are owed and then end it. Raise the maximum contribution amounts for IRA's and 401k's and draztically reduce entitlement spending.

Personally, I don't plan on collecting squat from SS. I am setting myself up through investing in my 401k, IRA and buying real estate and renting property out. I graduated college debt free (thanks to being in the military for 6 years) and have a good job. I own 8 properties and am closing on my 9th tomorrow morning. I have debt on only 1 property. I have been blessed with parents that instilled and taught me fiscal responsibility. They are from the Boomer generation, which is why I can't blame an entire generation on our current economic woes.

That being said, I also feel that there are many in my generation (I was born in 1982) that just want to throw in the towel and place blame somewhere. It is a collection of several of the previous generations that have contributed to this problem (and even a part of my generation). People my age need to realize that they need to get involved instead of bitching constantly. I've done my share of bitching, but I also am doing something about it by saving and investing in my own future. I'll be fine if I continue to do what I am doing and others need to realize they would be too if they save a little.

At my age, 28, I still have friends that don't vote, don't pay attention to anything in the news and devote a lot of their time to video games. IMO, they have no right to bitch about anything as they aren't attempting to fix any problems. They just want to place blame elsewhere and don't care to get involved and help change the future or their own future. They expect it to be done for them.

It will take all living generations coming together to fix this problem. Everyone will have to sacrifice to right the ship.

It's not hopeless, sure, but just ending trillion dollar deficits, and ending any new entitlement programs is NOT going to make the problem go away.

I'd love to hear all these great ideas that you have to get out of this mess. In reality, there is really only two things we have to do to fix the problem:

#1 Raise taxes.
#2 Significant cuts in benefits in SS/M&M and defense

Yep, you're right. All we need to do is cut benefits by 20% in 2022....and were good. Looks like I'll be getting 20K instead of 24K. Nobody is going to continue to run up unfathomable deficits as per your video,... it just is not going to be possible. I've already posted on this thread on how we can fix SS. SS is easy. Medicare is another story. As the saying goes....if you can't fix the easy stuff.....how are you going to fix the tough stuff?

Your video makes a good point about leadership. That has to be fixed #1. It is unreasonable to think we can fix any of these problems when the current leadership is trying to add more entitlements.
But before anyone of GEN Y makes this a generational thing and starts blaming baby boomers, they need to understand that those under 30 supported Obama nearly 70-30.... better than 2-1.

HitsRus;658194 wrote:Yep, you're right. All we need to do is cut benefits by 20% in 2022....and were good. Looks like I'll be getting 20K instead of 24K. Nobody is going to continue to run up unfathomable deficits as per your video,... it just is not going to be possible. I've already posted on this thread on how we can fix SS. SS is easy. Medicare is another story. As the saying goes....if you can't fix the easy stuff.....how are you going to fix the tough stuff?

Your video makes a good point about leadership. That has to be fixed #1. It is unreasonable to think we can fix any of these problems when the current leadership is trying to add more entitlements.
But before anyone of GEN Y makes this a generational thing and starts blaming baby boomers, they need to understand that those under 30 supported Obama nearly 70-30.... better than 2-1.

Umm, first of all, Obama has been in office 2 years, and I'm not saying he's not part of the problem but he didn't exactly put us in a 70.7 trillion dollar hole. I'm not sure why you keep harping on this, its irrelevant. Does it make more sense to blame someone who's voted in 1 or 2 presidential elections, or someone who has voted these clowns in their entire life? I mean shit, I'm 23, and I just recently found out how bad it is, so I'm trying to raise awareness amongst my peers to try to stem the tide. It's not just the baby boomers problem, its Americans in general, I'll give you that much. The problem is, Gen Y's aren't the ones that are mortgages the future generations money with ridiculous entitlement programs(Medicaid part D anyone?).

As for your other points, 20% reduction? SMH, yeah you don't have a flippin' clue. By 2022, I don't think anyone is going to buy our debt. Do you know what happens when no one buys our debt? We can't pay the bills, we default. GG

dwccrew;658063 wrote:I'm not concerned at all with people that aren't financially savvy enough or disciplined enough to save for retirement. Let them suffer then if they don't want to save.

The clowns leading the charge are Boomers. I don't blame the entire Boomer generation, but they are the ones in charge right now and while they may not be totally responsible for the SS mess, they are responsible for leading us further and further down a horrible path, economically speaking.

We are facing a future economic meltdown if we continue spending at the rates we have been, led by Boomers, would you agree? I'm with MB on this one. If I never have to pay into SS again, I'll glaly forfeit anything I have already paid into it. Let the Boomers collect what they are owed and then end it. Raise the maximum contribution amounts for IRA's and 401k's and draztically reduce entitlement spending.

Personally, I don't plan on collecting squat from SS. I am setting myself up through investing in my 401k, IRA and buying real estate and renting property out. I graduated college debt free (thanks to being in the military for 6 years) and have a good job. I own 8 properties and am closing on my 9th tomorrow morning. I have debt on only 1 property. I have been blessed with parents that instilled and taught me fiscal responsibility. They are from the Boomer generation, which is why I can't blame an entire generation on our current economic woes.

That being said, I also feel that there are many in my generation (I was born in 1982) that just want to throw in the towel and place blame somewhere. It is a collection of several of the previous generations that have contributed to this problem (and even a part of my generation). People my age need to realize that they need to get involved instead of bitching constantly. I've done my share of bitching, but I also am doing something about it by saving and investing in my own future. I'll be fine if I continue to do what I am doing and others need to realize they would be too if they save a little.

At my age, 28, I still have friends that don't vote, don't pay attention to anything in the news and devote a lot of their time to video games. IMO, they have no right to bitch about anything as they aren't attempting to fix any problems. They just want to place blame elsewhere and don't care to get involved and help change the future or their own future. They expect it to be done for them.

It will take all living generations coming together to fix this problem. Everyone will have to sacrifice to right the ship.

Well said and I salute you my friend.

"All we need to do is cut benefits by 20% in 2022....and were good."

I'll avoid the snarky grammar comment....but how is cutting 20% of future generations' benefits a solution? It isn't. It is generational theft. Would you accept cutting young people's salaries across the board by 20%? This isn't even a political or opinion topic, it is math. Why is it ok to tell future generations they need to pay more and accept less when it was YOUR generation that set the rules? THIEF!

HitsRus;658194 wrote:Yep, you're right. All we need to do is cut benefits by 20% in 2022....and were good.

Why wait until 2022? If we made the cuts now wouldn't they need to be smaller?

FatHobbit;658529 wrote:Why wait until 2022? If we made the cuts now wouldn't they need to be smaller?

You would need to scale it in over time. I'm only in my 30's, so I would time to adjust. Someone who is in their late 50's or early 60's and figured on social security as a large part of his/her retirement shouldn't just have that taken away from them this late in the process.

FatHobbit;658529 wrote:Why wait until 2022? If we made the cuts now wouldn't they need to be smaller?

I posted earlier and deleted it, but I'll re-post it. How are 20% reductions for anyone acceptable? Its as if the boomer generation finally found religion and realized that the system is unsustainable (which it is), and wants others to bear the burden.

Oh please ...stop. Just stop. The amount of hysteria here is way over the top. A 20% reduction was in response to "sleeping beauties" assertion that there was no way out of this mess except thru default or devaluation. The 20% figure is hyperbole too.... like sleeper's assertion that we'll keep spending and spending until no one wants to buy our debt. Oh, please Mr. 23 year old.

And what's with the sense of entitlement MBuckeye....that doesn't sound like you. "Thievery"? You are NOT entitled to Social Security benefits staying the same any more than I was as a 29 year old when it was changed back in the 80's. We got our payroll taxes raised(OMG!),... and those were the rules that my generation had to play by. Why do you think Gen X or Gen Y should be any different? Nobody can help the actuarial numbers. If you want the same benefits, you'll have to pay a bit more taxes...or take a benefit reduction...or some combination of that and other changes in the system. (I've posted them earlier).

What is being talked about may go something like this...a 1-2% tax increase phased in over 40 years and a benefit reduction of 1% for those under 55...5% for those under 45...9% for those under 35.
Increasing the age for full benefits to reflect actuarial numbers showing increased longevity.
Reducing benefits for High earners who typically live longer than low paid workers.
Raising the upper limit on contributions.
Requiring State and government workers to contribute to the System.


For those immortal young people who might not be familiar with retirement planning and who wonder why the older folks get off with lesser reductions, it is because of the shorter time horizon to make changes or adapt to new government policies. Necessarily, investment planning must be more conservative.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to beat me up. I'm not the bad guy here. I'm just trying to keep it real.
Sleeper's video did make one good point...that we have a leadership crisis. People are crying over chamges like I've listed above....but the current guys in charge want to add even more entitlements. There's your bad guy...go out and get people in there that'll be fiscally responsible.

"And what's with the sense of entitlement MBuckeye....that doesn't sound like you"

It doesn't sound like me because there is nothing in my posts that even reek entitlement, I'm willing to give up the hundreds of thousands of dollars that we've put in to a ponzi scheme. Where is the entitlement in that? Answer: NONE. It is all sacrifice.

I'm not beating you up, just your generation. It is no different than beating up Joey Votto for the Reds not winning (or making it to) the World Series. I'm not personally attacking you, or Believer, or WriterBuckeye, or anyone else. But the point is the state of the union isn't good, and for so-called conservatives/libertarians to speak out against rampant government spending, yet speak on the other side of their mouths that they should receive all that they've been "promised" with these same government programs is inane.

Oh please ...stop. Just stop. The amount of hysteria here is way over the top. A 20% reduction was in response to "sleeping beauties" assertion that there was no way out of this mess except thru default or devaluation. The 20% figure is hyperbole too.... like sleeper's assertion that we'll keep spending and spending until no one wants to buy our debt. Oh, please Mr. 23 year old

You're an idiot. You don't get it. We don't have to keep spending and spending, the number is ALREADY THERE. It's already been spent. Do you have any fucking clue what a liability is? Even if we stop spending NOW we still have this catastrophic problem to deal with. The data is out there, go look it up and dispel your ignorance.

The Chinese are slowly weening off buying US debt, that's ALREADY happening. We borrow approximately 1 TRILLION dollars every 6 weeks in order to fund our government. All it takes is one round of debt financing to not be filled and POOF, the economic destruction of America is there. I almost hope it happens sooner rather than later, so the fucking boomers can feel the worst financial pain of all time, they deserve it, especially after seeing the amount of ignorance on this thread and in talking with the general public.

What is being talked about may go something like this...a 1-2% tax increase phased in over 40 years and a benefit reduction of 1% for those under 55...5% for those under 45...9% for those under 35.
Increasing the age for full benefits to reflect actuarial numbers showing increased longevity.
Reducing benefits for High earners who typically live longer than low paid workers.
Raising the upper limit on contributions.
Requiring State and government workers to contribute to the System.

This is like using a fan to stop a hurricane.

We borrow approximately 1 TRILLION dollars every 6 weeks in order to fund our government

Link?No, No No. That is tooo funny.

The solitary word in the bottom left of all your posts says it all.

I'm willing to give up the hundreds of thousands of dollars that we've put in to a ponzi scheme. Where is the entitlement in that? Answer: NONE. It is all sacrifice.

It is a pay as you go system not a ponzi scheme. It only becomes a ponzi scheme if you don't pay off those that put money in expecting a return . Like anything you invest in, there is no guarantee of rate of return (unless you put your money into a CD backed by the U.S.Government.)

You sounded "entitled" when you talked about a benefit reduction being unfair.. Further, if you were a top earner for the past twenty years, you put in about $140K. Your maximum benefits will be about 24K/year. Most likely as a top earner,SS wil not be a major underpinning of your retirement plan. My concern more is for the little guy that wouldn't know a mutual fund if it hit him in the face. Almost all modern countries have some sort of a retirement system...most pay more than we do.

HitsRus;658802 wrote:It is a pay as you go system not a ponzi scheme. It only becomes a ponzi scheme if you don't pay off those that put money in expecting a return .

I know you don't like calling it a Ponzi scheme, but based on the recent data, the "trust fund" (I love typing that name...it makes me chuckle) will indeed expire, it's only a matter of time. Therefore, since it is slated to be unfunded soon, that qualifies it as a Ponzi scheme. One difference is that we see it coming, whereas those involved in a Ponzi have no clue what's about to hit them.

"You sounded "entitled" when you talked about a benefit reduction being unfair.."

I don't sound like anything, I'm speaking the truth. There is nothing opinionated or even political about it. Reducing benefits is prima facie unfair and it is tantamount to generational theft. That is exactly what it is. Telling your children they need to pay more and accept less is no different than you walking into your child's bedroom and stealing from their piggy bank.

Why don't boomers (liberal and conservative alike) not get this? It isn't political, it is basic math and economics. Do you or don't you care that you are taking from your children?

Manhattan Buckeye;658870 wrote:"You sounded "entitled" when you talked about a benefit reduction being unfair.."

I don't sound like anything, I'm speaking the truth. There is nothing opinionated or even political about it. Reducing benefits is prima facie unfair and it is tantamount to generational theft. That is exactly what it is. Telling your children they need to pay more and accept less is no different than you walking into your child's bedroom and stealing from their piggy bank.

Why don't boomers (liberal and conservative alike) not get this? It isn't political, it is basic math and economics. Do you or don't you care that you are taking from your children?

I'm not a boomer, but I know several boomers (mostly my parents and older relatives) who are in their late 50's and early 60's and have planned on having SS as a large part of their retirement. I don't think you can take that away from them at this point. I think you can phase things over time and make adjustments for people my age (mid 30s).