wkfan;733151 wrote:There is no amount of money that you can throw at things like this....and no amount of 'parenting the parents' that a teacher can undertake that can change these types of behaviors.

This is, of course, an unfortunate reality. However, you're correct that for some of these kids, it doesn't matter if you spend the money necessary to get the best teachers in the world. Some kids will not make the cut, because they don't earn it, and they don't deserve to.

Unfortunately, there is nothing a teacher can do to save those kids from the future consequences of their actions, which they can't fully understand at that age. I certainly sympathize with that element of the job.

It takes both a competent teacher and an eager student for the most optimal education conditions. When the teacher is competent, but the student isn't eager, little academic learning can take place. When a student is eager, but the teacher is incompetent, little academic learning can take place.

We have no control over which students enter the classrooms, but we SHOULD have some say in terms of the competency level of the teachers leading the classrooms. Not any Union. The people who are sending their children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, foster children, and godchildren into those classrooms.

wkfan;733151 wrote:Yes, it is part of a teacher's job to educate a kid on the graded courses of study that the State of Ohio prescribes for them. Where are the graded courses of study for 'parenting the parents'??

Funny thing about those parents is that they usually all have one thing in common: apathy about their child's/children's education. Make no mistake, they might care about the "grades" their child comes home with, and they'll try to blame the grades on the teacher in many cases, but when push comes to shove, they don't care whether or not their child LEARNS anything.

I get horror stories about these parents on nearly a daily basis. They play a significant role in the problem as well.

O-Trap;733166 wrote:...

I get horror stories about these parents on nearly a daily basis. They play a significant role in the problem as well.

IMHU they are the single greatest contributor to the educational process.

I don’t know if this will alter some of your views of teachers or not.
I (Belly) was a successful and loved teacher in the Toledo Area for 5 years…
“GOOOOOOOD Morning Class “

Con_Alma;733172 wrote:IMHU they are the single greatest contributor to the educational process.

Indeed. A child can learn very well even without attending a school at all if he or she has parents who are dedicated to his education.

Belly35;733173 wrote:I don’t know if this will alter some of your views of teachers or not.
I (Belly) was a successful and loved teacher in the Toledo Area for 5 years…
“GOOOOOOOD Morning Class “

O-Trap;733166 wrote:This is, of course, an unfortunate reality. However, you're correct that for some of these kids, it doesn't matter if you spend the money necessary to get the best teachers in the world. Some kids will not make the cut, because they don't earn it, and they don't deserve to.

Unfortunately, there is nothing a teacher can do to save those kids from the future consequences of their actions, which they can't fully understand at that age. I certainly sympathize with that element of the job.

It takes both a competent teacher and an eager student for the most optimal education conditions. When the teacher is competent, but the student isn't eager, little academic learning can take place. When a student is eager, but the teacher is incompetent, little academic learning can take place.

We have no control over which students enter the classrooms, but we SHOULD have some say in terms of the competency level of the teachers leading the classrooms. Not any Union. The people who are sending their children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, foster children, and godchildren into those classrooms.



Funny thing about those parents is that they usually all have one thing in common: apathy about their child's/children's education. Make no mistake, they might care about the "grades" their child comes home with, and they'll try to blame the grades on the teacher in many cases, but when push comes to shove, they don't care whether or not their child LEARNS anything.

I get horror stories about these parents on nearly a daily basis. They play a significant role in the problem as well.

this is a huge problem in our district...their are parents/and whole families and extended families that want their children to get bad grades, so they can get into special ed so they can be determined to be handicapped and they can get an SSI check..these checks are usuall between 600-800 per month per kid. they will fight tooth and nail to get their kid in special ed even when all the teachers and school agree that their is nothing wrong with the child besides the fact that they dont do any work. i have seen three generations of several families take part in this type of "scam" and it is becoming more prevelant as the word spreads through the neighborhood.

The gov't doesnt have time to really examine each case so they send out a survey for the teacher to fill out it is about 25 pages of questions. if you dont fill it out the kid automatically gets SSI...if you do fill it out they still have a good chance to get it.

Gblock;733216 wrote:this is a huge problem in our district...their are parents/and whole families and extended families that want their children to get bad grades, so they can get into special ed so they can be determined to be handicapped and they can get an SSI check..these checks are usuall between 600-800 per month per kid. they will fight tooth and nail to get their kid in special ed even when all the teachers and school agree that their is nothing wrong with the child besides the fact that they dont do any work. i have seen three generations of several families take part in this type of "scam" and it is becoming more prevelant as the word spreads through the neighborhood.

The gov't doesnt have time to really examine each case so they send out a survey for the teacher to fill out it is about 25 pages of questions. if you dont fill it out the kid automatically gets SSI...if you do fill it out they still have a good chance to get it.

This is why these topics become so difficult to navigate. An issue like this ... one that ideally should not play into the education of most students ... finds its way in. So many pieces of the publicly-run system are so interconnected that it becomes trying to make sense of our own Gordian Knot.

I genuinely think that if a family thinks their child to be developmentally disabled, that they should have to get a psychological assessment with such a diagnosis. I didn't do my homework in elementary school, but it had nothing to do with needing special ed. Special Ed, necessary as it is, should be the exception, not the rule, and should never be the default.

Also, I'm not so sure $600-$800 a month is necessary, since the public education system is still educating the child.

O-Trap;733166 wrote:We have no control over which students enter the classrooms, but we SHOULD have some say in terms of the competency level of the teachers leading the classrooms. Not any Union. The people who are sending their children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, foster children, and godchildren into those classrooms.

I could not agree with you more...as long as that 'we' is/are the school district personnel responsible for that task....not a group of parents or community members.

While I am not a union member or really an advocate for them, I think that there are some misconceptions otut there as to things like tenure and not being able to get rid of a bad teacher. In the district where my wife works, the principal at her school has fired two teachers in the last 4 years due to incompetence. It can be done, if the principal actually puts the effort in and addresses the issue. Unfortunately, there are too many building principals who will not do what should be done.

wkfan;733274 wrote:I could not agree with you more...as long as that 'we' is/are the school district personnel responsible for that task....not a group of parents or community members.

While I am not a union member or really an advocate for them, I think that there are some misconceptions otut there as to things like tenure and not being able to get rid of a bad teacher. In the district where my wife works, the principal at her school has fired two teachers in the last 4 years due to incompetence. It can be done, if the principal actually puts the effort in and addresses the issue. Unfortunately, there are too many building principals who will not do what should be done.

very true...its is vastly overstated on the OC on how hard it is to fire a teacher...its really not all that hard. our union puts out info all that time about things we will defend you for and things you wont be defended for...its not a very long list as far as what they'll defend you on.

One problem with discussion forums is you cannot always read TONE accurately. Sarcasm is typically the biggest culprit.

When WK wrote:"I simply asked a question to guage whether you know what you are talking about.

BTW.....I got my answer."

It came across to be as condescending. Otherwise, why write first that you were trying to "guage" (sic) whether or not I knew what I was talking about? It's a discussion board, who becomes the arbiter of who has enough knowledge to be credible to you?

Closing out with: "BTW...I got my answer" only reinforced to me that you were putting yourself and your views above what I wrote; that I somehow didn't have enough information to post salient, relevant comments?

Was I wrong in that interpretation?

If I was, then I apologize.

Your followup tells me my initial reaction to what you wrote is correct. You've spent more time volunteering and spending time in a classroom, so you therefore believe your views on this topic are "better" than mine.

Again, if I'm misinterpreting them, I apologize.

All of what you wrote about parental involvement and related problems I agree with, but it doesn't automatically exclude the idea that new approaches should be tried -- perhaps even including some of those I suggested.

The rest of my post about an elitism view was the (perhaps unfortunate) follow to what I felt was your condescension earlier. While it's the way I feel about a certain faction of folks in this country -- I should not have directed that at you in such a way, since I really don't know you. I assumed too much, it was late and I got off on a tangent that had no place in the discussion. For that, I apologize. I'd blame it on too long of a day, too much pain and fatigue (which can create a short fuse) but that's not your problem and doesn't excuse it.

By the way, I just came back from the office cafeteria where I had my lunch handed to me. Pun intended?

I hope your lunch was better than your pun.

Writerbuckeye;733379 wrote:I hope your lunch was better than your pun.

I'm still trying to figure out where the pun came from in the first place!!! Bulldog's reference to a pun has my mind blownt.

... Oh, and the sandwich was delicious ...

Writerbuckeye;733364 wrote:One problem with discussion forums is you cannot always read TONE accurately. Sarcasm is typically the biggest culprit.

When WK wrote:"I simply asked a question to guage whether you know what you are talking about.

BTW.....I got my answer."

It came across to be as condescending. Otherwise, why write first that you were trying to "guage" (sic) whether or not I knew what I was talking about? It's a discussion board, who becomes the arbiter of who has enough knowledge to be credible to you?

Closing out with: "BTW...I got my answer" only reinforced to me that you were putting yourself and your views above what I wrote; that I somehow didn't have enough information to post salient, relevant comments?

Was I wrong in that interpretation?

If I was, then I apologize.

Your followup tells me my initial reaction to what you wrote is correct. You've spent more time volunteering and spending time in a classroom, so you therefore believe your views on this topic are "better" than mine.

Again, if I'm misinterpreting them, I apologize.

All of what you wrote about parental involvement and related problems I agree with, but it doesn't automatically exclude the idea that new approaches should be tried -- perhaps even including some of those I suggested.

The rest of my post about an elitism view was the (perhaps unfortunate) follow to what I felt was your condescension earlier. While it's the way I feel about a certain faction of folks in this country -- I should not have directed that at you in such a way, since I really don't know you. I assumed too much, it was late and I got off on a tangent that had no place in the discussion. For that, I apologize. I'd blame it on too long of a day, too much pain and fatigue (which can create a short fuse) but that's not your problem and doesn't excuse it.

I agree with you....you cannot tell tone on a chat board. That is why I told you when I was being condescending. in my first post, I was not. (BTW....is it condescending to correct someone's spelling?? I'll leave that to you to decide).

On your second point....my viewpoint, as a result of the time that I have spent in a classroom, is not a better viewpoint than yours. I was just pointing out that my experience, and therefore my viewpoint, is different as a result of the time spent. I think, not to be condescending, that it is simply a more informed and experienced viewpoint.

O-Trap;733384 wrote:I'm still trying to figure out where the pun came from in the first place!!! Bulldog's reference to a pun has my mind blownt.

Lucky bastage. I had to hand myself my own lunch. I want to celebrate my awesome pwnage of myself, but I'm not sure that would be right.

wkfan;733465 wrote:I agree with you....you cannot tell tone on a chat board. That is why I told you when I was being condescending. in my first post, I was not. (BTW....is it condescending to correct someone's spelling?? I'll leave that to you to decide).

On your second point....my viewpoint, as a result of the time that I have spent in a classroom, is not a better viewpoint than yours. I was just pointing out that my experience, and therefore my viewpoint, is different as a result of the time spent. I think, not to be condescending, that it is simply a more informed and experienced viewpoint.

Seriously...this is one of those cases that illustrates perfectly why everyone should model themselves after the Fish. Just be sarcastic and condescending all the time...problem solved!

http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2011/03/01/video-why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-gov-kasich-helped-his-company-sell-bad-loans-to-ohio/#

http://rethinkecon.org/2011/03/07/john-kasich-and-the-temple-of-state-pension-funds/

whatever your feeling about unions and the current state of affairs...i think it may be a frying pan and fire situation

Gblock;733479 wrote:http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2011/03/01/video-why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-gov-kasich-helped-his-company-sell-bad-loans-to-ohio/#

http://rethinkecon.org/2011/03/07/john-kasich-and-the-temple-of-state-pension-funds/

whatever your feeling about unions and the current state of affairs...i think it may be a frying pan and fire situation

TBQH....everyone in Ohio saw about a bazillion campaign commercials and stories on this all last year. It was quite literally the cornerstone of Ted's campaign.

For some reason, the people voted him in anyway.

fish82;733482 wrote:TBQH....everyone in Ohio saw about a bazillion campaign commercials and stories on this all last year. It was quite literally the cornerstone of Ted's campaign.

For some reason, the people voted him in anyway.

true but in light of the 60 minutes report i thought it was worth mentioning...lehman bros was part of this...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110404/bs_yblog_thelookout/the-foreclosure-mess-isnt-going-away

and this type of slick activity is not above kasich...i heard that when he gets this proposal passed where parents in a community can choose what type of school they want, that his people go into the communty and pay the parents who were never involved and may or may not even care to get involved and pay/hire them to join the PTA or whatever committee thats necessary . in turn the parents choose his partners charter schools....just saying..i didnt make that up.

Gblock;733503 wrote:true but in light of the 60 minutes report i thought it was worth mentioning...lehman bros was part of this...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110404/bs_yblog_thelookout/the-foreclosure-mess-isnt-going-away

and this type of slick activity is not above kasich...i heard that when he gets this proposal passed where parents in a community can choose what type of school they want, that his people go into the communty and pay the parents who were never involved and may or may not even care to get involved and pay/hire them to join the PTA or whatever committee thats necessary . in turn the parents choose his partners charter schools....just saying..i didnt make that up.

Time to take off the tinfoil hat and take your meds -- if you truly believe this. I would bet any amount of money that rumors such as this begin with Kasich's political enemies, and most likely someone associated with the public school system (union member, official, someone like that). They're scared to death of ANY privatization that might happen because IF it's successful, people will ditch failing public school systems quicker than you can say "boo".

Gblock;733503 wrote:i heard that when he gets this proposal passed where parents in a community can choose what type of school they want, that his people go into the communty and pay the parents who were never involved and may or may not even care to get involved and pay/hire them to join the PTA or whatever committee thats necessary . in turn the parents choose his partners charter schools....just saying..i didnt make that up.

Passing along rumors without proof is not any better than making it up in the first place.

well its exactly what i would do if i was in the private sector of education so its really not far fetched...is it even illegal?

fish82;733471 wrote:Seriously...this is one of those cases that illustrates perfectly why everyone should model themselves after the Fish. Just be sarcastic and condescending all the time...problem solved!

Fish, you sarcastic, no-good *******!! No one can ever say you aren't consistent. Keep it up.

Some good analysis on how the so called Job's budget will affect local governments, library's, and schools.

http://www.policymattersohio.org/pdf/BudgetBriefOverview2012-13.pdf