You'd take Gabbert over McCoy? I wouldn't, and I'm not even high on Gabbert.

Brady's knock coming out of college was that he had a weak arm. He developed and gained arm strength as his career proceeded, much like Brees's arm strength improved.

SportsAndLady;956410 wrote:You'd take Gabbert over McCoy? I wouldn't, and I'm not even high on Gabbert.

Do you mean the other way around? He just doesn't seem to have it. He's a rookie and could improve (I guess just as McCoy can improve being it's his 2nd year) but right now I'd rather have McCoy.

Y-Town Steelhound;956426 wrote:Do you mean the other way around? He just doesn't seem to have it. He's a rookie and could improve (I guess just as McCoy can improve being it's his 2nd year) but right now I'd rather have McCoy.

McCoy isn't technically a rookie, but I think with what he went through in his actual first year, and this off-season, there's not separation between he and, let's say, Cam Newton, who's started every game this year, in terms of experience. I know I know, he played some games last season, but if all accounts are true about Mangini and his treatment of McCoy, I'd say McCoy looked decent on the field last year because of McCoy - not because the coaching staff helped him the way I'm sure Shurmur and Co. are, or hopefully are.

Mulva;955196 wrote:When the teams you've beaten are a combined 2-20, and two of them are the only two winless teams in the NFL, it doesn't mean jack. And the Browns aren't in striking distance, let's not kid ourselves. The other 3 teams in the division are on pace to finish with as many losses as the Browns already have.

The Browns have played the 3rd easiest schedule in the NFL. The defense is top 5 in numbers only. Does anyone honestly think this is a legit top 5, or even top 10, defense?

Total offense/Scoring offense:

Cinci - 22nd/12th
Indy - 30th/30th
Miami - 21st/29th
Tennessee - 25th/22nd
Oakland - 12th/16th
Seattle - 31st/27th
San Fran - 23rd/6th

We have the Rams and Jags (the worst 2 scoring offenses in the NFL) coming up, so the numbers will continue to look good. But that's only 1/7 opponents in the top 20 in the league offensively to this point.

I think Heckert is a good GM, but (like I said) it's way too early to be praising what he's done, because this is still a bad team that needs upgrades in a lot of places, including spots he's brought players in at. Replacing terrible players with average players (and let's not pretend Young, Brown, Mitchell, Fujita, Patterson, etc. are anything more than serviceable players) doesn't really do anything for me. I don't want the Browns to be average.

You don't need an all-pro at every spot, but it doesn't do any good to bring players in and then still badly need to upgrade the position you just filled (which is the position the Browns are in at OLB and CB at minimum, probably S and DE as well).

Taylor, Sheard, and Little have all been OK this year but nothing great, even by rookie standards. Being t-12 in the league in sacks is a testament to the D-line (especially in comparison to what the Browns pass rush usually looks like), but it's still middle of the pack. We're 26th in the NFL in run D.

The pass D has been the strength, but look at the quarterbacks faced:

1) Andy Dalton for the first half of his first career game
2) Bruce Gradkowski
3) Kerry Collins fresh out of retirement. So bad he's been benched for Curtis Painter.
4) Chad Henne
5) Matt Hasselbeck (threw 3 TD passes and we got crushed)
6) Jason Campbell/Kyle Boller
7) Charlie Whitehurst
8) Alex Smith

Would it be possible for the pass defense NOT to look good at this point?

Just not sold yet. Sorry.

They're facing terrible offeneses, but they're extremely - extremely - young. Most of the experience they do have, is only experience in terms of number of years. Look at Jayme Mitchell and D'Qwell Jackson - Mitchell has hardly played since he's been in the league, and Jackson has missed the last two seasons because of injury. With Heckert's "questionable judgement on talent", he was lucky that Jackson and Mitchell just so happen to be a big reason for the 'D's success this season, huh?

Teams are starting to figure out that you can't throw on Haden, and Sheldon Brown is more likely to be the DB teams look to pick-on. (See Hasselbeck).

I'm really - really - glad that you're not in Mike Holmgren's position. Just because you can go to ESPN.com or wherever and look at stats, doesn't make you a "know-all". Heckert has a proven track record from his time BEFORE Cleveland. He's in what, his second year? He's brought in 9 of the 11 starters on D this season. You said Gocong was a reason we needed to draft depth at LB in a post somewhere after this one, but Gocong has been able to get consistent pressure on whoever the QB is back there all year long.

You can say what you want about the Seattle offense, I don't really care, but that was one of the best performances I've ever seen from the Cleveland Defense. Seattle was in Cleveland territory quite a bit, and our offense doesn't do shit to help out our D.

If you aren't "sold", then you, sir, are an idiot. Just because they haven't signed a "Mike Vick", or brought in an Asante Samuel type player, doesn't mean he is an idiot. Draft picks take time to pan-out, and unlike previous years, Heckert's draft picks are paying dividends for the Browns NOW and some in their second year.

The Browns have played "weak" offenses, but like COA said, you can only play the teams on the schedule. And you mention the Rams as one of those "weak offenses" the Browns are going to face in coming weeks. You do know that the dismal Rams offense led by A.J. Feely crushed the Saints, right? It's the NFL - nothing is a given. The Browns are playing really - really - well on defense right now, and if our offense could figure it out - much like you Mr. Mulva - then they would be even better.

Browns fans kill me, absolutely kill me. Say what you want, but I see vast improvement with the Browns. Are they getting better week-to-week? Right now, no, but I think that has a lot to do with the stress Shurmur is putting himself through. But what's different between this year's "horrible" team and previous "horrible" teams, they have a front office that, contrary to your belief Mr. Mulva, is more competent than they have ever had in Clevelend since their return.

SportsAndLady;956410 wrote:You'd take Gabbert over McCoy? I wouldn't, and I'm not even high on Gabbert.

I think they are near even.

OhioStatePride2003;955073 wrote:I usually just scroll through and find the posters, i.e. BR, CoA, etc. that actually contribute to a conversation based on knowledge and facts, and skip the idiots who know nothing about football.

OhioStatePride2003;956513 wrote:Just because you can go to ESPN.com or wherever and look at stats, doesn't make you a "know-all". Heckert has a proven track record from his time BEFORE Cleveland. He's in what, his second year? He's brought in 9 of the 11 starters on D this season.

1) Make up your mind. Do you want me to converse with facts or not? Just because they fly in the face of what you want to believe about this defense doesn't make them wrong.

2) I never said I was a "know-all". But it's pretty funny to me that I'm the know-all yet you're the one saying

OhioStatePride2003;956513 wrote:If you aren't "sold", then you, sir, are an idiot.

Arguing with facts and not getting overly optimistic about the guys in charge? Know-all. Arguing with opinions and stupid "if you can't see blah blah blah" anecdotes? Correct approach. I get it now.

Typical Cleveland fashion. Suck the dick of the people in charge, they're leading us to the promised land! Until they don't. And then the next group comes in, and we fawn over their "track record" before they've done anything worth talking about.

3) I'm not sure how many times I have to say this part, maybe if I bold it it will help. I don't care about bringing in 9 of 11 starters. Replacing completely shitty players with serviceable but-still-in-need-of-being-upgraded players (Brown, Fujita, Young, Mitchell) doesn't mean anything to me. It gets you closer to not being terrible. Hooray. It doesn't get you closer to being a legit contender, so why is that anything to hang your hat on? A lot of people on this thread are saying "he's upgraded the defense, now it's time to focus on the offense", but strangely most mock drafts and "team needs" lists have OLB, CB, and DE right up there as top priorities along with OT and OG.

OhioStatePride2003;956513 wrote:With Heckert's "questionable judgement on talent", he was lucky that Jackson and Mitchell just so happen to be a big reason for the 'D's success this season, huh?

Uh, Jackson wasn't a Heckert addition, and he led the league in tackles in 2008. It's not like he's a surprise. Everyone knows he can play when healthy. And Jayme Mitchell needs to be upgraded. He'd be a solid rotational/depth guy, but there's a reason he never played much before this year. If the Browns weren't transitioning on the fly and severely lacking capable 4-3 linemen he wouldn't be starting for us either.

OhioStatePride2003;956513 wrote:The Browns have played "weak" offenses, but like COA said, you can only play the teams on the schedule.

It seems pretty logical to me that you don't throw together a group of guys who have never been more than serviceable depth players and instantly they become a top 5 defense. There is absolutely no way to possibly argue against the list of quarterbacks we've faced. Just because "you play who's on your schedule" doesn't give more credence to the idea that this is a legit defense. It's like saying Case Keenum is the greatest quarterback in college football history because of his stats. I mean, hey, he can only play the teams on Houston's schedule!

OhioStatePride2003;956513 wrote:And you mention the Rams as one of those "weak offenses" the Browns are going to face in coming weeks. You do know that the dismal Rams offense led by A.J. Feely crushed the Saints, right?

And you do know that the Rams defense returned an INT for a TD, and that 2 of the other touchdowns were set up by a blocked punt (recovered at the NO 29) and another INT (at the NO 38), right?

Steven Jackson ran over the Saints D, and he'll probably do the same to the Browns because our defense is 26th in the league against the run and isn't a top 5 defense.

OhioStatePride2003;956513 wrote:they have a front office that, contrary to your belief Mr. Mulva, is more competent than they have ever had in Clevelend since their return.

I'm fairly certain I've said I think this is the best front office we've had since returning, and I'm 100% positive that I (even on the last couple of pages of this thread) said that I think Heckert is a good GM. I'm just not ready to start screaming for him to be GM of the year like some people just because he's turned a shit offense and shit defense into a shit offense and average defense inflated by playing a horrific early schedule.

OhioStatePride2003;956513 wrote:Browns fans kill me, absolutely kill me.

I call them how I see them, regardless of what team it is. You know what absolutely kills me? Blind optimism. Like saying the Browns are within striking distance in the division.

I think we disagree on a few players. Are Brown, Fujita, and Mitchel all pros? No, but they're better than you make them out to be. Look at any defense, not every player can be a top 10 overall pick stud with multiple pro bowls in their future. Mitchell has been nothing short of solid, sure Brown and Fujita are getting up there in age and gotten beat on plays but that happens to anyone. Look at AJ Green's TD against It happens. Haden. Heckert knows they need to good young depth behind them. I think you may have unrealistic expectations.

Also lol at trying to compare Houston to NFL.

Commander of Awesome;956609 wrote:I think we disagree on a few players. Are Brown, Fujita, and Mitchel all pros? No, but they're better than you make them out to be. Look at any defense, not every player can be a top 10 overall pick stud with multiple pro bowls in their future.

Mulva;955196 wrote:You don't need an all-pro at every spot, but it doesn't do any good to bring players in and then still badly need to upgrade the position you just filled

I'm not under any unrealistic expectation of having a pro-bowler at every position. I guess we do disagree on the players because in my opinion Sheldon Brown is a horrible corner. He's a guy who has no business starting out there. I disagree with Mitchell being solid too. He hasn't done jack since the Miami game. He would be a good guy to rotate in, but he just isn't an NFL starter (on a legitimate defense). He's good enough for the Browns as they are now, but again, my whole argument is that where they are now isn't all that good. And Fujita is just too old. He's another guy that has value in certain situations and is great to have for his leadership, but he just can't do anything in pass coverage at this point and gets horribly beat just as often as he makes a big play.

Commander of Awesome;956609 wrote:Also lol at trying to compare Houston to NFL.

That's called an analogy. They aren't meant as literal comparisons.

Edit: For what it's worth (absolutely nothing), Walter Football updated it's mock draft today and agrees with me about Mitchell (although they put the wrong year).

Cleveland Browns: Quinton Coples, DE, North Carolina

Jabaal Sheard has had a solid rookie year, but he's the only Cleveland defensive lineman consistently getting to the quarterback. Jayme Mitchell, playing on the other side, has only been average for the Browns in 2010.

Wow I have a lot to catch up on with this thread. tl;dr.

[h=2]Things that go bump in the pocket[/h] Nov 3rd, 2011 @ 8:49 am by Steve Doerschuk

• Maybe Colt McCoy will break through. The Browns, particularly Tom Heckert, still talk as if they are expecting it. Some of you have given up on it. Most of you, I think, are not expecting it, but hoping for it.
• Charley Casserly, the former Texans GM, said on 92.3 this morning that Andrew Luck is the best quarterback prospect to come out of college since John Elway in 1983.
• Casserly was in Houston in 2002 when the Texans spent a No. 1 overall pick on David Carr. There was plenty of dissension in the building on that one. The “no” votes were vindicated.
• The Texans strung along the organization with Carr until Matt Schaub arrived in 2006.
One thing about first-round QBs, Mike Holmgren told us recently, you’ve gotta play ‘em. The investment is too big to do otherwise. QBs drafted down the line can develop under the radar and play — or not play — as observation dictates.
• Why has McCoy seldom if ever looked in 2011 the way he looked in last year’s game against the Patriots?
Casserly’s view: 1, Peyton Hillis hasn’t helped. 2, Opponents made thick books on him during the offseason, “Zeroing in” on pet McCoy throws they could zero in on. 3, His arm strength isn’t great. 4, His accuracy is suspect.
• Casserly’s conversations with talent sleuths around the league lead him to conclude the latest grade on USC QB Matt Barkley is not worthy of a first-round grade.
• One more key point from Casserly: So much of it boils down to supporting cast. Even Luck, he says, will look like a jinxed man if his supporting cast is bad.
• Gotta like McCoy’s pluck. We all know it might not happen for him. He talks as if it WILL happen. He invites all of you to stay on board for the ride of a Browns lifetime.

http://blogs.cantonrep.com/freshbrownies/things-that-go-bump-in-the-pocket/

Mulva;956601 wrote:1)I call them how I see them, regardless of what team it is. You know what absolutely kills me? Blind optimism. Like saying the Browns are within striking distance in the division.

You can defend your idiocy however you so choose, but you're still a douchebag. Sheard as been better than Mitchell this year, but not by much. Mitchell has hardly played in his entire career. And I wasn't saying Jackson was a Heckert guy, just that he's missed the last two seasons because of injury, and hasn't been around the game as much as he could have been.

I particuarly loved the part where you were vomitting at the mouth about the defense, and you can't throw a group of guys together, and Case Keenum, blah blah blah. The fact that they have a bunch of, by your evaluation, average starters on this defense, and are a top five defense, should make them just as a legitimate of a defense, than saying that their stats are a direct reflection of who they've faced. To simplify for you, moron: the fact that they are just a bunch of "serviceable" players thrown together, and yet, have a top five defense, should make them legitimate. A bunch of average NFL career-type scrubs (which I don't really understand because outside of Fujita and Brown (10 years exp) and Adams (8 years exp), this team is REALLY young) don't get thrown together and become a top five defense, even against crappy offenses. The Defense is fine, aside from depth. The problems are with the offense, and their inability to help the defense. This defense would be even better if the offense knew what they were doing.

At 3-4, yes the Browns ARE within striking distance in the AFC North. Pitt and Balt have been up and down all year, and Cincy is relying on a rookie QB and WR to maintain a high level. I never said it would happen, ever, not once, just simply stated that, as of Week 8 in the current NFL standings, based on standings alone, the Browns are within striking distance. Aren't you the one that's all about "facts", and "stats"?

I'm done arguing with you. Again, argue your idiocy however you want, but clearly I'm not the only one that thinks you to be a douchebag.

You add a playmaking OLB, another solid cover corner and another rush DE and this will be one of the top YOUNG defenses in the NFL. The defense isn't far off. It's the offense that is an abortion.

Speaking of the offense, I'm now convinced more & more that the front office/coaching staff are more in the "evaluation" mode than "winning games" mode. That's the only thing that can explain Pinkston & Lauvao starting over Hicks & Greco at this point. Greco & Hicks are better options than those young guys if you're looking to win.

I could see that BR. I must say that is a refreshing take, how long were we screaming for Harrison to get a look at RB over Lewis who just looked done out there? RAC and Mangini hated playing rookies and stunted our growth imo because we never knew what we had behind the old vets that they brought in.

OhioStatePride2003;956827 wrote:You can defend your idiocy however you so choose, but you're still a douchebag.

Good counterargument. "I disagree, so you're a douchebag!" I get why you're so big on arguing with knowledge and facts now, you're quite good at it.

It's probably a good idea for you to be done arguing with me though. Based on the way things are going, if we continue down this path you might get way too offended and emotional over a message board opinion that has absolutely nothing to do with you personally and respond with something that makes you look immature and rattled, and I wouldn't want that to happen.

PS: Believe it or not I've had agreements and disagreements with just about every Browns/Cleveland fan on here at some point or another. They might think I'm a douchebag, but I hope most of them are at least mature enough to think that because of more than just a meaningless opinion they disagree with.

I think that's enough tl;dr posts for one day.

I'm curious Mulva, what moves would you have liked to see Heckert?

I'd take Henne over McCoy.

fujita is one of the most unathletic players in the nfl

By the way I don't think he Kerr has much of a track record what real power did he have in Philly. I'm pretty sure Andy Reid makes personal decisions

I still contend that if you fix the damn OL and give McCoy just one outstanding wideout who can stretch the field and is strong enough to go up and fight for the ball, this offense would average 20 plus points per game. This also assumes we've got a healthy running back that isn't the 4th or 5th choice.

As for the statement that QBs in the AFC North have to have strong arms, I'd say that's baloney, too. Brian Sipe didn't have a monster arm and he was a winner, because he had the other parts around him. Hell, Bernie didn't have the rocket arm for about half his career, and did just fine when the other parts were there.

Right now this Cleveland offense has NOTHING going for it. No decent running back; no outstanding receiver; and half of an offensive line that is playing like undrafted free agents.

Yet McCoy is taking the heat for the offense being shit-tackular.

I hope the front office isn't as over-reactive as a lot of Browns fans are while they're making their evaluations.

Browns are a top 5 defense?

thedynasty1998;956873 wrote:Browns are a top 5 defense?

Yeah, if you weren't a piece of shit, and an actual fan you would know this.

Alright, 1 more long post.

Commander of Awesome;956851 wrote:I'm curious Mulva, what moves would you have liked to see Heckert?

This season, I would have liked to see them make at least a couple of aggressive moves in free agency, instead of settling for afterthoughts. The opinion some people have that there's no way to fairly judge McCoy because he has no line or weapons around him is somewhat valid, but you know what would have solved some of that? Filling a couple of those holes through free agency. There's no rule that you have to focus 100% on defense 1 year and 100% on offense the next. Filling a couple of holes here and a couple of holes there is a better strategy than trying to plug 6 offensive holes at one time in my opinion.

I also would have liked to see draft picks that made more sense in the 4th round than Marecic and Cameron. Much bigger holes to fill than TE or FB on this team, especially on projects like Cameron. Not expecting starters, but should have been able to at least get depth guys at positions of greater need.

Last season, I would have liked to see a QB who wasn't a washed up retread like Jake Delhomme brought in (if I remember correctly most Browns fans were against that decision right off the bat). I would have liked to see a tackle better than Pashos brought in at RT. It's been a hole for too long to keep putting off. Those are a few off the top of my head.

I'm not saying I'm unhappy with the job Heckert's done overall. I've gotta re-quote the post that started this whole thing:

OQB;954119 wrote:The Browns drafting has been pathetic...thank God Heckert is here.

That was the post I responded to. I never said he doesn't know what he's doing or that it won't work out. I said that it's too early to be thanking god that he's here, because he hasn't accomplished anything just yet.

I also said that his drafting hasn't been that impressive outside of the 1st couple of rounds. Is anybody honestly excited about McCoy, Lauvao, Asante, Mitchell, Geathers, Cameron, Marecic, Skrine, Pinkston, and Hagg? Because that's all of Heckert's draft picks after round 2. I even prefaced that statement by saying IF McCoy doesn't work out. I wasn't labeling him a bust.

Then that argument went into "look at what he's done with the defense", which went into my opinion that the free agents he's brought in defensively are nothing more than stop-gaps, which turned into me getting snapped on.

There are probably at least 20 teams in the NFL that you could add 3 important defensive pieces to and say they'd be one of the top Ds in the league. They just aren't as close as some of you think they are in my opinion.

In my eyes we have a bottom 5 offense and somewhere from a 12-18 defense.

I'm just not sure who was available in FA that I would have gone after. Sure in theory it would have been nice to go after a few guys on the offensive side but outside of Rice (coming off an injury, one good season, big money to an aging player 6 yr $41 million) there wasn't a guy available that I would have wanted. The atlanta oline comes to mind, but the guy I was wanting (Clabo) was 29 yrs old and got a 6 yr $30 million dollar deal. No thanks on that for the Browns.

Ray Edwards was the main guy I wanted, and from most accounts Heckert tried to get him, but he didn't want to play here. Can't sign guys that dont want to play here, I think you're forgetting that. I for one applaud Heckert for not making a dumbass deal that buts the Browns behind the 8 ball on the salary cap. Look at Seahawks giving Housemanzadah (however the hell its spelled) 5 yr $40 mil only to cut him 2 yrs later, or the Raiders giving away the farm for Carson Palmer. Most of the time when you dive into FA, you lose. Look at the Patriots, got OchoCinco and Haynesworth. Both have been monumental busts for them so far this season. That what you want for Cleveland? You'd be bitching then about Heckert not building through the draft. Honestly I'm more than pleased with the process thus far.

As for Mareric and Cameron, those were wastes of picks thus far. Though Mareric has been improving each week but I loved Vickers and wanted him to stay. Cameron far as I know hasn't seen the field outside of ST. Wasted pick for sure thus far, but like with any draft.... you need to wait 3 yrs to properly evaluate.

You can be nit picky about the defense all you want, but the fact of the matter is they are currently a top 5 defense. Yes it might be distorted a bit, because they have played shitty QBs/offenses, but you also have to consider the fact the offense doesn't even keep the Browns D off the field. It is pretty impressive that theya re able to be a top 5 defense with all the time they have spent on the field. If the offense actually learns how to play football and take some of the time of possession, then the Browns D might currently be a top 3 defense.

Also their redzone/goal line defense has been pretty impressive as well. They have consistently been holding opponents to FG's, and keeping the team as a whole in the game. A defense isn't going to dominate every second of every game. Keeping other teams out of the end zone goes a long way.

Commander of Awesome;956913 wrote:The atlanta oline comes to mind, but the guy I was wanting (Clabo) was 29 yrs old and got a 6 yr $30 million dollar deal. No thanks on that for the Browns.

I liked Clabo, Charlie Johnson, Davin Joseph, Gaither, and Ryan Harris. Gaither and Harris would have been injury risks (and Harris ended up having back surgery and then got cut), but I would have loved to make a run at any of the first 3.

Wouldn't have gone after a receiver in free agency, but I thought this year was a great chance to shore up the line. Obviously didn't know Steinbach would go down, but I thought we could use an upgrade at RG and RT.

I'd never complain about needing to build through the draft if free agents don't pan out either. I'd wager that draft picks have a higher failure rate than proven veteran FA signings. I'm always of the opinion that you need a combination of both. If you try to do it through one or the other you'll never get an entire team built.