To quote an excerpt from the "Beliveland" article on espn (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=101201/Cleveland):

"The markings conversation sticks with me. LeBron took seven years of cheers as a fee for services rendered. He made them his cheers. The fans were lucky to be witnesses. They deserved nothing in return for their love except great basketball and excitement. But it's not always that simple, and somewhere inside, James knew it. Not long ago, he talked about the Saints and the city of New Orleans: "Just look at what the Saints did for that city. All that city went through, and then to the Monday night game where they played the Falcons, and blocking the punt, and all the way to winning the Super Bowl, that's very emotional." What he understood in others, he either ignored or failed to understand in himself. Maybe he was too insulated. Maybe he was too young. Maybe the love of a city like Cleveland is too small a dream -- or, maybe, it's too big. Instead of grasping the golden ticket to Legend, he seemed to want the ordinary one to Star, the sporting equivalent of a perfectly normal, nice suburban subdivision.

Whatever the reason, he didn't get that Cleveland felt about him the way New Orleans feels about the Saints. And, as he ends one chapter of his life and begins play in another, those are just some of the markings LeBron doesn't yet have."

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To me, this sums up why Lebron is so vilified in Cleveland. Its not just because of how he left, that is a cop out for people in my mind. Yeah, he definitely made it worse by how he left, but had he just left in a quiet manner, he still would be hated in Cleveland. And I'm not going to get into this whole back and forth argument going on about how Cleveland didn't love him "unconditionally" because now they hate him because he doesn't play for their team. That is dumb. Lebron was as loved in Cleveland as any iconic athlete has ever been loved in a city.

Manhattan Buckeye;587401 wrote:The Scottie Pippen chant at the Q was on point,

how so?

Because LeBron is to Pippen as Wade is to Jordan.

Wade already won a championship, James is the proverbial hangaround - assuming they can beat the Celtics/Lakers or whoever. The Heat will never be James' team as long as Wade is around....and fans in Miami don't even care one way or the other.

Manhattan Buckeye;587401 wrote: "Who cares if any other athlete has done that? Really, who cares besides bellyaching Cleveland fans trying to justify their over the top reactions?"

Non-Cavalier fans of other teams (myself included) who think James looked and acted like an idiot.

Okay, so...do you guys feel better then?

Manhattan Buckeye;587401 wrote:"but if he ends up winning titles, he'll get that back. "

Not if Wade gets the credit.

The Scottie Pippen chant at the Q was on point, James should thank Tiger Woods for his marital transgressions, because no other athlete in modern history has pissed away so much goodwill. He went from the chosen one to being the second banana.

See, there it is some more. You want him to be "second banana" to Wade because you think it'll somehow prove he made the wrong move. First, I doubt Scottie Pippen is complaining about all his rings. Second, Scottie Pippen was NEVER going to be talked about as one of the top few players of all time.

Dude still hasn't done shit and you are already building excuses for why it won't count when he does? I don't have a vested interest either way, but I almost want LeBron to win a couple titles now just so you'll see how much people only really care about one thing when it comes to NBA players. Yes, it would've been a nice, heartwarming story if he'd won in Cleveland. But IF he wins one or more, it will not matter one bit to his "legacy" years from now.

Manhattan Buckeye;587424 wrote:Because LeBron is to Pippen as Wade is to Jordan.

Wade already won a championship, James is the proverbial hangaround - assuming they can beat the Celtics/Lakers or whoever. The Heat will never be James' team as long as Wade is around....and fans in Miami don't even care one way or the other.

It is certainly possible that Wade may end up being the team leader. If he is, maybe that is a valid comparison. If LeBron is the leader, statistically and otherwise, he's going to get the credit for it. The thing is, what we don't disagree about is that James just isn't a leader in the truest sense of the word. He never was. Neither is Wade, really. As long as they win, it is going to be good for both though because neither was likely to ever to do it (again, in Wade's case) alone.

Manhattan Buckeye;587424 wrote:Because LeBron is to Pippen as Wade is to Jordan.

Wade already won a championship, James is the proverbial hangaround - assuming they can beat the Celtics/Lakers or whoever. The Heat will never be James' team as long as Wade is around....and fans in Miami don't even care one way or the other.

No, its just a cute and fruitless attempt by Cavs fans to take a jab at LeBron. Everyone said LeBron was either the best or second best player in the league while he was in Cleveland. He goes to Miami and suddenly got worse?

karen lotz;587445 wrote:No, its just a cute and fruitless attempt by Cavs fans to take a jab at LeBron. Everyone said LeBron was either the best or second best player in the league while he was in Cleveland. He goes to Miami and suddenly got worse?

Nope. LeBron is the best player in the game, but that is not his team now. It's DWade's team.

Thus, he is now the Pippen to Wade's Heat.

Obviously, Pippen was a beast and a top 50 player, but it's more that LBJ is now the "side-kick"

cute and fruitless...lol

No jabs needed...worst PR move in the storied history of PR moves, and he did it all by himself

Such a simple concept being debated, he hung Cle. fans out to dry on a national stage, no fan base with half the passion Cle. fans feel would feel any different, not sure why those with a pulse would think anything different.

There is a reason why, nationally, LeBron is now more hated then ever. It's not just Cleveland, contrary to what the Cleveland haters want to believe.

thedynasty1998;587376 wrote:LeBron being compared to Arod is absolutely ridiculous. And instead of LeBron leaving due to a lack of talent and maybe enjoying Miami a little more, it's because he's insecure. Like how we came to that conclusion. People can say what they want about LeBron, but being insecure is one of the absolute dumbest and idiotic statements.

How is the ARod comparison ridiculous?

How is the insecure comment idiotic?

Both definitely apply.

Watching "More than a game", you definitely see his insecurities. You still see them by his group of yes men, his failed attempts at continuing to save face, and his constant errors is speech.

ytownfootball;587464 wrote:cute and fruitless...lol

No jabs needed...worst PR move in the storied history of PR moves, and he did it all by himself

Such a simple concept being debated, he hung Cle. fans out to dry on a national stage, no fan base with half the passion Cle. fans feel would feel any different, not sure why those with a pulse would think anything different.

Who gives a shit if it was a bad PR move?

karen lotz;587472 wrote:Who gives a shit if it was a bad PR move?

Obviously a lot of people, which is why LeBron moved to #6 on the most hated athletes list.

LeBron has always wanted to be loved, so I'm guessing it bothers him too, which is why he continues to say "I can't go back and change that day" or "These are decisions I have to live with"... etc..

You may not think it was a big deal, but others may. The point of argument on this topic is kind of moot.

There is some pretty pathetic attempts at tweaking Cleveland fans going on right now. Lol at everyone getting upset about the Scottie Pippen comparisons. When a friend and I were doing a live draft for fantasy NBA this year, the first overall pick was Lebron. We started busting the guys balls (jokingly) about how Lebron wasn't even the first option on his team anymore. The guy got really butthurt about it. I thought that was the most upset I'd ever see anyone get about it until I read this thread haha. Maybe Karen Lotz is Maverick Carter.

ytownfootball;587464 wrote: Such a simple concept being debated, he hung Cle. fans out to dry on a national stage, no fan base with half the passion Cle. fans feel would feel any different, not sure why those with a pulse would think anything different.

It isn't that they feel burned that makes me comment. It is the psycho ex-girlfriend irrationality that gets my interest. Somewhere on this thread, someone said basically, "someday LeBron is going to miss us because no one will ever love him like we did". Think about that comment for a minute. When have you ever heard that before? You don't see how dreadfully desperate that sounds? There is a basic psychological element to that thinking that everyone who has ever dated a COMPLETE PSYCHO knows about. And its what most of you Cleveland fans are doing. It is just overboard and worth making fun of because none of you know the guy personally...thats all.

karen lotz;587445 wrote:No, its just a cute and fruitless attempt by Cavs fans to take a jab at LeBron. Everyone said LeBron was either the best or second best player in the league while he was in Cleveland. He goes to Miami and suddenly got worse?

Of course he didn't suddenly get worse. He's a better basketball player than Wade.

The issue is he CHOSE to be the second banana. Aside from (i) the idiocy of "The Decision", this is the point many fans of basketball don't understand....(ii) why would James accept a lesser role when he has more talent?

Cav fans - or non-Cav fans understand both of these points, the only people that seem to ignore it are the James bootlickers. I think (i) is far worse than (ii). If James really wanted to play in Miami there was a right way of doing it and he not only didn't do but did it in the worst manner possible. But on the other hand I can see people believing (ii) is more egregious - its as if he doesn't want to be the leader.

hoops23;587478 wrote: LeBron has always wanted to be loved, so I'm guessing it bothers him too, which is why he continues to say "I can't go back and change that day" or "These are decisions I have to live with"... etc..

I do buy this. I also believe that he wants to be loved in a much different way than what Cleveland fans think or understand. It is kind of like the farm kid whose parents really love the job he does for the family farm...they work hard, make a good living, and have what they have. But the kid wants that adulation from the rest of the world, so he has to go to the city and make it big. It never meant that he didn't like where he was, he just wanted something more/different. Now, when the parents disown him, sure it is going to hurt...but ultimately, the problem is with them not the one trying to fulfill HIS life dreams.

trep14;587482 wrote:There is some pretty pathetic attempts at tweaking Cleveland fans going on right now. Lol at everyone getting upset about the Scottie Pippen comparisons. When a friend and I were doing a live draft for fantasy NBA this year, the first overall pick was Lebron. We started busting the guys balls (jokingly) about how Lebron wasn't even the first option on his team anymore. The guy got really butthurt about it. I thought that was the most upset I'd ever see anyone get about it until I read this thread haha. Maybe Karen Lotz is Maverick Carter.

I'm not upset or butthurt about anything regarding LeBron. Maybe your friend got butthurt because you anally raped him?

This whole thing is so damn stupid, a case study in frivolity, you know what's fruitless, is trying to explain to a non Cleveland fan what it's all about. What other fan base has such a basis to validate their animosity? Any fan base have red right 88, the Drive? How about the fumble No? How about Jose fuckin' Mesa? any of those singly would be enough to throw some into a cyclone of despair...now add them all together and add "The Decision" as a fucking cherry...nice.

But we're supposed to "understand", be reasonable, get over it, hold hands and sing Kum Ba Ya...fuck that

Don't judge me 'till you've walked a mile in my shoes, seems to apply here. No fan of any other base has a valid point that interests those of us who have endured what we have, and trying to explain it to you is like describing the color red to a blind man...you ain't gonna get it.

enigmaax;587483 wrote:You don't see how dreadfully desperate that sounds?

+infinity

karen lotz;587491 wrote:I'm not upset or butthurt about anything regarding LeBron. Maybe your friend got butthurt because you anally raped him?

What? That was a weird thing to say.

Manhattan Buckeye;587488 wrote:Of course he didn't suddenly get worse. He's a better basketball player than Wade.

The issue is he CHOSE to be the second banana. Aside from (i) the idiocy of "The Decision", this is the point many fans of basketball don't understand....(ii) why would James accept a lesser role when he has more talent?

Cav fans - or non-Cav fans understand both of these points, the only people that seem to ignore it are the James bootlickers. I think (i) is far worse than (ii). If James really wanted to play in Miami there was a right way of doing it and he not only didn't do but did it in the worst manner possible. But on the other hand I can see people believing (ii) is more egregious - its as if he doesn't want to be the leader.

Just so we are clear, I absolutely agree that "The Decision" was idiotic. But it isn't surprising given his need for attention. And I don't think it was a personal attack on the city of Cleveland or LeBron's way of saying "fuck you" like you guys want to believe. His line of thinking was all about himself and how many people would be tuning in to see him. It is outrageously selfish, but not malicious toward Cleveland.

The second point is just stupid. No matter how good you are, if you want to win a championship you want to put yourself in the best possible position. That means get the best players. Cleveland wasn't going to do that in LeBron's mind. Then there's the part about wanting to play with your buddies. It was a unique opportunity and makes perfect sense if you step out of being a "fan" for one moment and think about yourself being in the same position professionally.

Manhattan Buckeye;587488 wrote:Of course he didn't suddenly get worse. He's a better basketball player than Wade.

The issue is he CHOSE to be the second banana. Aside from (i) the idiocy of "The Decision", this is the point many fans of basketball don't understand....(ii) why would James accept a lesser role when he has more talent?

Cav fans - or non-Cav fans understand both of these points, the only people that seem to ignore it are the James bootlickers. I think (i) is far worse than (ii). If James really wanted to play in Miami there was a right way of doing it and he not only didn't do but did it in the worst manner possible. But on the other hand I can see people believing (ii) is more egregious - its as if he doesn't want to be the leader.

How is he accepting a lesser role? He has said his whole career that he looks pass first. He has been criticized his entire career for passing to open teammates at the end of games instead of taking the last shot. Now he can pass to a better player than he passed to in Cleveland. If that means he is taking a lesser role, you win.

trep14;587494 wrote:What? That was a weird thing to say.

Do you not understand why I said it? It was also weird to say that I was butt hurt and that I was Maverick Carter.

'But the kid wants that adulation from the rest of the world,"

Which he won't get if he cherry picks his title team. The cliche "if you want to be the best, you have to BEAT the best" is appropriate, there isn't a cliche that "if you want to be the best, you JOIN the best".

James had the opportunity to lead teams, just like Magic, Bird and Jordan did. Magic didn't run to the Rockets, Bird didn't run to the 76'ers and Jordan didn't run to the Pistons. James ran to the Heat.

ytownfootball;587492 wrote:This whole thing is so damn stupid, a case study in frivolity, you know what's fruitless, is trying to explain to a non Cleveland fan what it's all about. What other fan base has such a basis to validate their animosity? Any fan base have red right 88, the Drive? How about the fumble No? How about Jose fuckin' Mesa? any of those singly would be enough to throw some into a cyclone of despair...now add them all together and add "The Decision" as a fucking cherry...nice.

But we're supposed to "understand", be reasonable, get over it, hold hands and sing Kum Ba Ya...fuck that

Don't judge me 'till you've walked a mile in my shoes, seems to apply here. No fan of any other base has a valid point that interests those of us who have endured what we have, and trying to explain it to you is like describing the color red to a blind man...you ain't gonna get it.

None of those things have anything to do with LeBron. That is more of that psycho ex-girlfriend thing. "This guy cheated on me and that guy spent my money this guy broke off our engagement and NOW THIS GUY LEAVES ME SO HE SUCKS MORE THAN ANY GUY IN THE WORLD BECAUSE I DIDN'T NEED THIS!!!!" Woe to you, poor, poor precious heart. LeBron should've cured all of the rest of those things you can't let go of...because that's you sign up for when you date someone with so much baggage.