Is it time for private schools to have theyre own playoffs in football

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redstreak one's avatar

redstreak one

Senior Member

1,152 posts
Nov 19, 2010 10:47 AM
tsst-fballfan has hit the nail on the head with the argument that Private schools do not reflect ALL of society within their school walls.

When I say limit enrollment, I dont mean intentionally limiting it. Private schools have an advantage because they have limited numbers due to such factors as tuition and high academic and moral standards. These are not available to public schools.

Just look at the two districts compared side by side.

Public- has a set radius of area from which students have to attend that district, unless they open enroll into another district.
Private- has no set radius of area from which to draw from, they take whomever can get there and meet all eligibility requirements.

Public- Cannot deny an education to any student no matter what the students academic and behavior problems, if they live within the above area.
Private- Can deny an education to any student.

I have posted before on the different students showing up on the doorstep of a private and public school with varying different educational, behavior and athletic abilities and very few people want to see how Private schools deny enrollment, therefore LIMIT their numbers which HELPS athletics! lol

I for one will not argue for split tourneys, steeltown! However, to say the playing field is level is just flat out wrong.

So many factors go into a great sports program, one of the biggest is socio economic and homelife. Walk through the halls of the large Public schools in Youngstown, and walk down the halls of Mooney or Ursuline and tell me where you feel safer.

Its not because the large Public schools and community dont WANT them to, they just cant turn away that 30-40% of kids that cause the problems like your Privates can! LOL
Nov 19, 2010 10:47am
H

holdingout

Senior Member

585 posts
Nov 19, 2010 2:18 PM
Thinthickbigred;565362 wrote:Right we bring in ....... We only get complaints from people that we have beaten more times so obviosly we recruit ...that is a outright falsehood.....It just is . i live in Toronto and they got a running back that quit Big Red a few years ago and youd have thought they won the friggin lottery...I aint alking about a kid here or their comming into a program I am talking about many many everyyear ..... and by a completely different means .... All you public school guys that rip us ...You are only weakening your own stance..."cut your own nose to spite your face"
^This guy is on Steubenville City Council
Nov 19, 2010 2:18pm
Bigred1995's avatar

Bigred1995

Ohio Chatter - CFO

1,042 posts
Nov 19, 2010 2:27 PM
Con_Alma;564084 wrote:Yeah, but I for the life of me can't figure out the automatic willingness to throw an S on to the name of schools like St. Edward or St. John. I am just trying to understand where it came from. There's got to be a rational explanation for it.

I make spelling and grammatical errors all the time but this (S) thing is really strange to me because it's done so consistently by so many people.
I've thought about this too! The way I rationalized it was that at one time, most if not all, establishments were actually owned by individuals, so if you were going to the grocery store owned by John, you were going to John's Grocery. At some point individuals no longer owned the establishments and the name of these establishments changed but the habit of adding the "s" to the end of the name stayed.
There may be another more accurate explanation, but this was the only thing I could think of that actually made sense to me.

As for the topic, I say NO to a separate system! As others have stated, if you want to be the best you have to beat the best! I'm also not sold on multipliers as there is no fair way of it working for everyone. To impose a multiplier is to assume that all schools (private & open enrollment) have the same potential in attracting the same number and quality of athletes.
If the OHSAA want to do anything, they should enforce rules already on the books and more closely investigate legitimate accusations and make all investigations public, including the party(ies) calling for the investigation!
Nov 19, 2010 2:27pm
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
Nov 19, 2010 2:51 PM
Bigred1995;565777 wrote:I've thought about this too! The way I rationalized it was that at one time, most if not all, establishments were actually owned by individuals, so if you were going to the grocery store owned by John, you were going to John's Grocery. At some point individuals no longer owned the establishments and the name of these establishments changed but the habit of adding the "s" to the end of the name stayed.
There may be another more accurate explanation, but this was the only thing I could think of that actually made sense to me.

As for the topic, I say NO to a separate system! As others have stated, if you want to be the best you have to beat the best! I'm also not sold on multipliers as there is no fair way of it working for everyone. To impose a multiplier is to assume that all schools (private & open enrollment) have the same potential in attracting the same number and quality of athletes.
If the OHSAA want to do anything, they should enforce rules already on the books and more closely investigate legitimate accusations and make all investigations public, including the party(ies) calling for the investigation!

I agree that OHSAA should enforce all rules and punish anyone breaking them. I'm not sure how public you can make an investigation when you are dealing with minors. Perhaps you could say which schools are being investigated but leave out that names.
Nov 19, 2010 2:51pm
Bigred1995's avatar

Bigred1995

Ohio Chatter - CFO

1,042 posts
Nov 19, 2010 2:58 PM
Al Bundy;565800 wrote:I agree that OHSAA should enforce all rules and punish anyone breaking them. I'm not sure how public you can make an investigation when you are dealing with minors. Perhaps you could say which schools are being investigated but leave out that names.

I agree, no name of minors should ever be mentioned. The reason I say the investigations should be public is so that people can't make anonymous accusations about schools and have the OHSAA chasing their tales over petty vendettas! I also believe by "outing" the accusing party will ensure that any evidence for such illegal activities will be of the highest standard!
Nov 19, 2010 2:58pm
J

justcompete

Senior Member

263 posts
Nov 19, 2010 3:03 PM
If you notice, 3-4 schools are the only ones being mentioned on here. How about all of the schools (public & private) that are playing by the rules. How can you lump them in with seperation or a multiplier? I am sitting in Columbus and the Catholic schools each draw from certain Parishes and the public schools stay in their limits.
If you want to see a great model, look at Watterson and the success they enjoy. They draw kids from Hilliard, Upper Arlington, Dublin, Worthington who each also enjoy success. No recruiting and excellent academics.
My question is, what would a Catholic kid do from a community like Salem? The closest school they could attend would be in Louisville or Youngstown. Would you tell him or her they can't play sports because of where they live? Not fair.
Nov 19, 2010 3:03pm
coyotes22's avatar

coyotes22

Go Tigers

11,298 posts
Nov 19, 2010 4:24 PM
tsst_fballfan;565342 wrote:The quandary with your faulty apples to oranges comparison that very very very very few if any rural D5 public schools get any open enrollment students. For example Smithville has open enrollment but there is noway in hell a Dalton Bulldog or a Waynedale Bear or a Norwayne Bobcat would open enroll to Smithville or vice versa. Then there is the population factor. A rural D5 school, even including bordering districts which they won't get kids from anyway, may have a population pool of 6,000 people. Smithville's population is actually about 1250. Ursuline draws from a pool of what a quarter million? On top of that if a handicap kid with straight D- grades and on welfare shows up at Norwayne they can't be turned away. Even though it would benefit Norwayne not to have that student both academically and athletically. Plus open enrollment in Ohio is only for kids that live in a district that physically adjoins the district they reside in. Saw a SVSM student sign in Marshallville (about 30 miles and half a dozen districts away).

For the record I voted not to separate the playoffs. I only debate that they should be played by the same guidelines. Using district guidelines, open enrollment guidelines, attendance guidelines (nobody can be turned away), etc.

Do you really believe parents want to send their kids to a school in Youngstown that has to use metal detectors and law enforcement at the doors rather than send them to Ursuline? They do it because they can't get into Ursuline! Whether it's a financial restriction or an academic restriction. If Ursuline were truly open to all, no matter their financial or academic status, their enrollment would explode to the size of most large city schools.

Nice feeble attempt at a strawman argument with pro sports. It has nothing to do with which team is more talented. It has only to do with the guidelines set forth to control how that talent is acquired. If New England and Pittsburgh used different guidelines that gave them a distinct advantage at acquiring talent and Buffalo was only getting talent from Buffalo then you would have case. Nice try though.
If I am reading and understanding your statement above, correctly,,,,,,,, You are wrong. In Ohio, schools have three options, seen below,,,,,,,,,,,,,
By law, a school district must adopt one of three open enrollment policies:
- No open enrollment at all.
- Open enrollment only from contiguous districts.
- Open enrollment from anywhere in the state.
More than 75% of the school districts in Ohio have open enrollment.
Stark County Schools:

No open enrollment: Canton City, Jackson, Lake, Louisville, North Canton, Plain
Adjacent: Northwest, Osnaburg, Sandy Valley
Statewide: Alliance, Canton Local, Fairless, Marlington, Massillon, Minerva, Perry, Tuslaw
Nov 19, 2010 4:24pm
coyotes22's avatar

coyotes22

Go Tigers

11,298 posts
Nov 19, 2010 4:30 PM
bases_loaded;565173 wrote:Its hilarious watching Massillon and Steubenville fans complain about recruiting.

Not all!!!!!! :D
Nov 19, 2010 4:30pm
skank's avatar

skank

Senior Member

6,543 posts
Nov 19, 2010 4:32 PM
sherm03;565313 wrote:I received an academic scholarship. And I didn't play a down of football at Mooney.

They obviously can't give em ALL to athletes, they gotta make it look good.
Nov 19, 2010 4:32pm
skank's avatar

skank

Senior Member

6,543 posts
Nov 19, 2010 4:34 PM
fish82;565364 wrote:No, you wouldn't. I doubt you'd like the result.

We finally agree on something....I also doubt I would like the results.
Nov 19, 2010 4:34pm
fish82's avatar

fish82

Senior Member

4,111 posts
Nov 19, 2010 4:37 PM
skank;565992 wrote:We finally agree on something....I also doubt I would like the results.
Because you'd have one less talking point to hump.
Nov 19, 2010 4:37pm
T

Thinthickbigred

Senior Member

4,148 posts
Nov 19, 2010 4:56 PM
Public school fans continue to attack other public school fans on this subject ..You are playing perfectly into the hands of these Universities .......I am thinking of the little guys like the town of Kirtland ..That prbably has a town of 3,000 and has to play an all star team out of Youngstown that draws in from 100,000
Nov 19, 2010 4:56pm
skank's avatar

skank

Senior Member

6,543 posts
Nov 19, 2010 4:57 PM
bases_loaded;565173 wrote:Its hilarious watching Massillon and Steubenville fans complain about recruiting.

Notice he didn't say alleged recruiting.
Nov 19, 2010 4:57pm
T

Thinthickbigred

Senior Member

4,148 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:00 PM
bases loaded doesnt even bring anything intellegent to the table .. All he does is cry ....
Nov 19, 2010 5:00pm
skank's avatar

skank

Senior Member

6,543 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:01 PM
fish82;565997 wrote:Because you'd have one less talking point to hump.

No, I think the findings would be the equivelent of a bloody glove....Oh that's right, he also got away with it.
Nov 19, 2010 5:01pm
tsst_fballfan's avatar

tsst_fballfan

Senior Member

406 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:08 PM
coyotes22;565970 wrote:If I am reading and understanding your statement above, correctly,,,,,,,, You are wrong. In Ohio, schools have three options, seen below,,,,,,,,,,,,,



Stark County Schools:

No open enrollment: Canton City, Jackson, Lake, Louisville, North Canton, Plain
Adjacent: Northwest, Osnaburg, Sandy Valley
Statewide: Alliance, Canton Local, Fairless, Marlington, Massillon, Minerva, Perry, Tuslaw
I stand corrected coyotes22. That's what I was told by the school so it must be the option they chose.
Nov 19, 2010 5:08pm
coyotes22's avatar

coyotes22

Go Tigers

11,298 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:19 PM
Thinthickbigred;566020 wrote:Public school fans continue to attack other public school fans on this subject ..You are playing perfectly into the hands of these Universities .......I am thinking of the little guys like the town of Kirtland ..That prbably has a town of 3,000 and has to play an all star team out of Youngstown that draws in from 100,000

IF, you are referring to ME, heres an Idea,,,,,,,,,,,,

I understand that this is a debatable subject, and that this is an internet forum, of which things are to be debated about,,,,,, but,,,,,

Have you contacted OHSAA about what you THINK happens at private schools?
Have they given you a reason to think something shady is going on?
Will they not answer you at all?

I understand you are frustrated with the privates, but, you could debate till your blue in the face, and it will not get you anywhere, on here.
Does Steubenville have OE in the entire state? Look it up, for me.

.
Nov 19, 2010 5:19pm
skank's avatar

skank

Senior Member

6,543 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:41 PM
coyotes22;566042 wrote:IF, you are referring to ME, heres an Idea,,,,,,,,,,,,

I understand that this is a debatable subject, and that this is an internet forum, of which things are to be debated about,,,,,, but,,,,,

Have you contacted OHSAA about what you THINK happens at private schools?
Have they given you a reason to think something shady is going on?
Will they not answer you at all?

I understand you are frustrated with the privates, but, you could debate till your blue in the face, and it will not get you anywhere, on here.
Does Steubenville have OE in the entire state? Look it up, for me.

.

^^^^^^^^^^Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha......................hahahahahahahaha...............hahahaha...........hahahaha.
Nov 19, 2010 5:41pm
T

Thinthickbigred

Senior Member

4,148 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:43 PM
coyotes22;566042 wrote:IF, you are referring to ME, heres an Idea,,,,,,,,,,,,

I understand that this is a debatable subject, and that this is an internet forum, of which things are to be debated about,,,,,, but,,,,,

Have you contacted OHSAA about what you THINK happens at private schools?
Have they given you a reason to think something shady is going on?
Will they not answer you at all?

I understand you are frustrated with the privates, but, you could debate till your blue in the face, and it will not get you anywhere, on here.
Does Steubenville have OE in the entire state? Look it up, for me.

.

I wasnt reffering to you .....I dont think any public school has OE for the entire state ....... But privates can go all over the USA
Nov 19, 2010 5:43pm
T

Thinthickbigred

Senior Member

4,148 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:44 PM
I am not upset ..Others are upset I am just discussing things ..People then want to attack personnally or just by dumb comments
Nov 19, 2010 5:44pm
skank's avatar

skank

Senior Member

6,543 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:45 PM
coyotes22;566042 wrote:IF, you are referring to ME, heres an Idea,,,,,,,,,,,,

I understand that this is a debatable subject, and that this is an internet forum, of which things are to be debated about,,,,,, but,,,,,

Have you contacted OHSAA about what you THINK happens at private schools?
Have they given you a reason to think something shady is going on?
Will they not answer you at all?

I understand you are frustrated with the privates, but, you could debate till your blue in the face, and it will not get you anywhere, on here.
Does Steubenville have OE in the entire state? Look it up, for me.

.

For what? Confirmation? I doubt they admit to anything.
Nov 19, 2010 5:45pm
skank's avatar

skank

Senior Member

6,543 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:46 PM
coyotes22;566042 wrote:IF, you are referring to ME, heres an Idea,,,,,,,,,,,,

I understand that this is a debatable subject, and that this is an internet forum, of which things are to be debated about,,,,,, but,,,,,

Have you contacted OHSAA about what you THINK happens at private schools?
Have they given you a reason to think something shady is going on?
Will they not answer you at all?
I understand you are frustrated with the privates, but, you could debate till your blue in the face, and it will not get you anywhere, on here.
Does Steubenville have OE in the entire state? Look it up, for me.

.

I believe their answer is loud and clear.
Nov 19, 2010 5:46pm
coyotes22's avatar

coyotes22

Go Tigers

11,298 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:46 PM
Thinthickbigred;566066 wrote:I wasnt reffering to you .....I dont think any public school has OE for the entire state ....... But privates can go all over the USA

Really?

By law, a school district must adopt one of three open enrollment policies:
- No open enrollment at all.
- Open enrollment only from contiguous districts.
- Open enrollment from anywhere in the state.

Massillon has chosen the third option.

More than 75% of the school districts in Ohio have open enrollment.
Nov 19, 2010 5:46pm
coyotes22's avatar

coyotes22

Go Tigers

11,298 posts
Nov 19, 2010 5:48 PM
Skank, Im trying to fight with you. Im just saying, that to argue this here, in this setting, will do nothing. Maybe if enough people gang up on OHSAA, they will do more. It just gets old, seeing the same fight, every year, on a HS forum.

We live in a country, where we can change things, by the power of the people. Maybe, like I said, if enough people gang up together, and push on the OHSAA, they will break. And do more.
Nov 19, 2010 5:48pm
sherm03's avatar

sherm03

I go balls deep.

7,349 posts
Nov 19, 2010 6:04 PM
skank;566063 wrote:^^^^^^^^^^Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha......................hahahahahahahaha...............hahahaha...........hahahaha.
I'm assuming by this response that, no, in fact they haven't given you a reason to think something shady (read ILLEGAL) is going on. You're just upset that the families of kids decided they wanted their son to attend a Catholic school instead of the public school. If you think a school has done something illegal, by all means...call in to the OHSAA with your proof. But you cannot do that. Instead, you will just sit behind your computer and complain and whine because you know that the schools you continue to complain about have done nothing wrong.
Thinthickbigred;566066 wrote:I wasnt reffering to you .....I dont think any public school has OE for the entire state .......


I count 8 schools listed in post #106.
Thinthickbigred;566066 wrote:But privates can go all over the USA
Umm...has Steubenville ever had a kid from West Virginia on their team?
Nov 19, 2010 6:04pm